Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

[rns-e]

See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about, you can't have a rational conversation with someone who continues to ignore that 1-foot roll out is a standard. In your view, they are "cooking the numbers."

I don't even like the comparison of the SRT 392 and 85D because the SRT is a performance model, just not the top performance model. The 85D has good performance, but it's not a "performance" model. Dodge is absolutely quoting a 1-foot roll out with those numbers, as I said, it's common practice here. Edmunds, which doesn't use 1-foot roll out, says the Hellcat does 0-60 in 4.1. So, there you go.

Are you even reading what I'm saying? How can you say Dodge is absolutely quoting roll out, when they are not quoting 0-60 mph at all on their site? Who is not capable of having a rational conversation, throwing names around and claiming things without being able to document them.

Ok, you do not like the SRT 392 as the 85D comparison, fair. Let's take SXT or the R/T or the R/T plus, take your pick, just provide the documentation for you claims, that whatever non performance Challenger model you take Dodge is quoting without roll out and when they move to the performance models it magically is the standard to do it with roll out.

Just show me the documentation and I will be more than happy to agree with you that Tesla might have been inspired by Dodge or others, no need to get defensive. I believe you when you say that the Hellcat done by C/D is with roll out and at Edmunds with roll out, but that is not what we are talking about, is it? We are talking about using roll out and not using roll out within the same product line aka same car model, which would be the Model S or Dodge Challenger.

At this point you have only said that the examples I have given you is not what you are talking about, and then you throw out a Edmunds number for the Hellcat - that is a strong argument for your claim that Dodge does not use roll out on their non performance Challenger models

Edit: If you do not have the documentation, just come out and say that, instead of calling people names and throwing claims around about standards of different test methods for different cars in the same model series from the same manufacturer.

 

[Andyw2100]

The letter has been sent via Fed Ex, for delivery tomorrow morning, by 10:30 AM.

There were a total of 71 signers, made up mostly of P85D owners. We did have support from about ten other Tesla car owners, investors who do not own cars, and Tesla supporters.

As a group, we actually own a substantial amount of stock. After polling those signing, I wound up including the following line, along with the signatures:

"The signers of this letter together hold at least 13,523 shares of Tesla stock (self-reported.)"


I believe that is significant, as it demonstrates that we really are interested in Tesla's well-being, and not just our own.

Thanks again to everyone who signed, for everyone's support, and especially to wk057 and sorka for both their help with the letter, and their insightful posts that have helped so many of us understand the issue.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Are you even reading what I'm saying? How can you say Dodge is absolutely quoting roll out, when they are not quoting 0-60 mph at all on their site? Who is not capable of having a rational conversation, throwing names around and claiming things without being able to document them.

Ok, you do not like the SRT 392 as the 85D comparison, fair. Let's take SXT or the R/T or the R/T plus, take your pick, just provide the documentation for you claims, that whatever non performance Challenger model you take Dodge is quoting without roll out and when they move to the performance models it magically is the standard to do it with roll out.

Just show me the documentation and I will be more than happy to agree with you that Tesla might have been inspired by Dodge or others, no need to get defensive. I believe you when you say that the Hellcat done by C/D is with roll out and at Edmunds with roll out, but that is not what we are talking about, is it? We are talking about using roll out and not using roll out within the same product line aka same car model, which would be the Model S or Dodge Challenger.

At this point you have only said that the examples I have given you is not what you are talking about, and then you throw out a Edmunds number for the Hellcat - that is a strong argument for your claim that Dodge does not use roll out on their non performance Challenger models

Roll-out is used in the quarter mile times, which is why I mentioned it. Car and Driver, as far as I'm aware, uses roll-out where Edmunds does not. Hence my using their Hellcat numbers as an example.

But fine we'll just have to look at a manufacturer that does list 0-60, Chevy:

Chevy Comaro SS:

Chevy: 4.7
Edmunds: 4.8

Chevy Comaro ZL1:

Chevy: 4.0
Edmunds: 4.4


Not definitive, but it sure looks like they could be using different measurement methods to me.

Sources:

2015 Chevrolet Camaro Review Ratings | Edmunds

http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Vehicles/Cars/2015_Camaro_ZL1/Model_Overview/02_PDFs/Camaro%20Specs%20Update%205_14_14.pdf

 

[omarsultan]

That's because they did the proper thing and only listed the maximum hp that both produce combined.

The Golf GTW is a parallel hybrid with both motor and engine driving the same wheels, versus the cars we were talking about where each power plant is working independently. Porsche does something similar with the 918 when discussing power to the rear wheels, which also have a hybrid power plant driving them. As far as the P85D, I don't think anyone has the data yet to know if both motors run at max output at some point, justifying the 691hp number, so I am not sure you can judge if its "proper" or not.

 

[longlake.ra]

The car could have whatever numbers and I couldn't see it making any difference in my enjoyment of the car (P85D ). I drove before I bought.

 

[rns-e]

Roll-out is used in the quarter mile times, which is why I mentioned it. Car and Driver, as far as I'm aware, uses roll-out where Edmunds does not. Hence my using their Hellcat numbers as an example.

But fine we'll just have to look at a manufacturer that does list 0-60, Chevy:

Chevy Comaro SS:

Chevy: 4.7
Edmunds: 4.8

Chevy Comaro ZL1:

Chevy: 4.0
Edmunds: 4.4


Not definitive, but it sure looks like they could be using different measurement methods to me.

I would agree but the fact that Edmunds did not test the SS, but just quoted the number, whereas Motor Trend tested the 2013 SS at 4.3s, and MT uses roll out, so it looks like Chevy does not differentiate between performance and non performance models when choosing roll out for their 0-60 numbers. Of course the 2015 SS could be 0.4s slower than the 2013, but I doubt it

EDIT - that did actually just prove your point, didn't? Unless the 2015 SS is slower than the 2013 by 0.4s you are correct! I learned something new today - but it still does not sit right with me

- - - Updated - - -

The Golf GTW is a parallel hybrid with both motor and engine driving the same wheels, versus the cars we were talking about where each power plant is working independently. Porsche does something similar with the 918 when discussing power to the rear wheels, which also have a hybrid power plant driving them. As far as the P85D, I don't think anyone has the data yet to know if both motors run at max output at some point, justifying the 691hp number, so I am not sure you can judge if its "proper" or not.

Somehow Tesla is able to do it on the 70D, the 85D and the 90D, but not on the P85D and the P90D, so it would be interesting to know how they do it for the three non-performance models

 

[qwertzy]

Mercedes also uses rollout.

E63 AMG Luxury Sedan Sports Car | Mercedes-Benz

Edmunds.com

Goes from 0-60 in 3.4/3.5 with rollout and 3.7 without.

 

[rns-e]

Mercedes also uses rollout.

E63 AMG Luxury Sedan Sports Car | Mercedes-Benz

Edmunds.com

Goes from 0-60 in 3.4/3.5 with rollout and 3.7 without.

That is a soft roll out MB claims 3.5, MT and C/D gets 3.4 and Edmunds 3.7

 

[dsm363]

That is a soft roll out MB claims 3.5, MT and C/D gets 3.4 and Edmunds 3.7

I thought you said European manufacturers never use a rollout so it was something totally foreign to the European buyers. Is this time listed in the EU as well or do they list the non rollout time?

 

[rns-e]

I thought you said European manufacturers never use a rollout so it was something totally foreign to the European buyers. Is this time listed in the EU as well or do they list the non rollout time?

Ouch, guess I had that coming

They list it at 4.2s 0-100 km/h

EDIT: That is not the E63 AMG S 4matic, which is listed at 3.7s 0-100 km/h, which would be equal to the US claim of 3.5s

Maybe C/D, Edmunds and MT does not know how to use the AMG 63 S 4matic launch control (grasping at straws here)

EDIT take two: At least good all Audi is not up to those games with the RS7. Claims 3.7s C/D gets 3.4s (sigh of relief). Even Edmunds is quoting 3.4s 'During Edmunds performance testing, an RS 7 leapt to 60 mph in an absurdly quick 3.4 seconds'

EDIT take three: BMW Grand Coupe M6 claim 4.1s C/D 3.7s, so no roll out for BMW in their claim.

 

[ProSkeptic]

Tesla are [] a charitable organisation, not a business...

Are you, in fact, insane?

Tesla is a publically traded corporation. They are in no way whatsoever a charitable organization.

 

[Zaxxon]

Are you, in fact, insane?

Tesla is a publically traded corporation. They are in no way whatsoever a charitable organization.

You may hear a slight 'whooshing' sound as air flows over your head. (The poster you quoted was employing sarcasm.)

 

[ProSkeptic]

(The poster you quoted was employing sarcasm.)

Sorry. I'm fairly new, here, and I'm still negotiating each poster's stance on 'The Goodness of Tesla'.

 

[smac]

Are you, in fact, insane?

Tesla is a publically traded corporation. They are in no way whatsoever a charitable organization.

Nope I'm not insane, though maybe a little ludicrous


As to whether my post was sarcasm or satire is debatable unfortunately

 

[ProSkeptic]

As to whether my post was sarcasm or satire is debatable unfortunately

S'okay. We cool.

 

[S'toon]

Nope I'm not insane, though maybe a little ludicrous


As to whether my post was sarcasm or satire is debatable unfortunately

When in doubt I use a <sarcasm> tag or

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Do folks think that the latest Consumer Reports customer rating for the P85D of 103 out of 100 (highest ever) will make the complaints here fall on deaf ears at Tesla? It would seem that with such high customer sat ratings, the complaints may not get much traction.

 

[ProSkeptic]

Do folks think that the latest Consumer Reports customer rating for the P85D of 103 out of 100 (highest ever) will make the complaints here fall on deaf ears at Tesla? It would seem that with such high customer sat ratings, the complaints may not get much traction.

If anyone has followed CR's history, they'll find that they're typically swayed by agendas that they aren't always willing to commit to ink.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

If anyone has followed CR's history, they'll find that they're typically swayed by agendas that they aren't always willing to commit to ink.

What does that mean? CR doesn't accept advertising and is one of the most neutral sources of product reviews known to man, as far as I know. They even buy the car with their own money. What interests?

 

[gnxs]

......With gasoline engines you don't have to worry about losing power as your fuel level goes down. With the P85D, by the time you hit 50%, right in the middle of my normal driving range, you're already down 50hp.

While fuel levels in a gasoline car won't effect hp, there are a myriad of other factors that would result in an ICE vehicle making less hp that expected/rated (even though the car was initially verified to make the rated hp #). Heat soak, state of tune, fuel quality, the trans gear the test was performed in, etc., etc. etc.