stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
This is actually a very good catch. Showing the 70-90mph (or similar range) number of the RS7 vs P85D makes a better point that saying the P85D is easily outperformed with no evidence.
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Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Andyw2100
- Start date
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
I'm not really arguing, you are free entertainment for the audience and they are clapping hard!
Did you test drive the car? This car has always been anemic at higher road speeds - it the nature of electric powered vehicles with no transmission. Zero Motorcycles has the same issue. 800 HP, 1000 HP won't fix it. It needs different gearing on one of the two motors to overcome the top end and/or numerous gearing ratios that ICE vehicles have. I will bet the P90D is still anemic compared a good high performance car from 70 to 150.
What do you want? Exactly? A gas card with $500 on it. A buy back? A free upgrade to LUD? Are you going to want Super LUD for free when it is released too? What about the P150D - you gonna want that for free too when it gets released? You did write the letter and publish it in a public forum for comment - I gave you my comment and it was obviously what others were thinking too.
I recommend you lease - because you will never be happy when you see what this company is releasing next. The P85D was obsolete the day you purchased it - welcome to car ownership.
Did you test drive the car? This car has always been anemic at higher road speeds - it the nature of electric powered vehicles with no transmission. Zero Motorcycles has the same issue. 800 HP, 1000 HP won't fix it. It needs different gearing on one of the two motors to overcome the top end and/or numerous gearing ratios that ICE vehicles have. I will bet the P90D is still anemic compared a good high performance car from 70 to 150.
What do you want? Exactly? A gas card with $500 on it. A buy back? A free upgrade to LUD? Are you going to want Super LUD for free when it is released too? What about the P150D - you gonna want that for free too when it gets released? You did write the letter and publish it in a public forum for comment - I gave you my comment and it was obviously what others were thinking too.
I recommend you lease - because you will never be happy when you see what this company is releasing next. The P85D was obsolete the day you purchased it - welcome to car ownership.
mkspeedr
Member
This letter makes me laugh – think, should, believe – you should add something about rainbows if you don't want to use data. The conclusion has no specific request.
Ok, I get it – you paid for a 10 second car (FF reference) or whatever. State what you want. Sure I wish it was faster but I have race cars for that – not my 4 door commuter.
If you want real data you can use my dyno and data acquisition equipment.
Ok, I get it – you paid for a 10 second car (FF reference) or whatever. State what you want. Sure I wish it was faster but I have race cars for that – not my 4 door commuter.
If you want real data you can use my dyno and data acquisition equipment.
It really hard to argue with that.
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Hard to argue with that too
1+
Torben_E
As a fairly new person to the forum this has been interesting to watch to say the least. I agonized over buying a P85D vs an 85D. I finally decided on an 85D because for 20K more, I would expect to get the full performance advertised. There is no other benefit to the P85D. The suspension is the same, everything else is the same, except the performance (except red calipers which i WANT!). When consumer reports said the P85D achieved around 3.5 0-60 times that was it for me. I also drove the two back to back and didn't feel the P85D was a full sec faster. I can't see paying 20K for 1/2 a sec. If it had a better suspension maybe, but it doesn't anymore (the P85+'s did). Anyone from Tesla feel free to contact me and change my mind. I have a few days left to change my order!
Eric
Eric
95% of all ICE cars overstate their HP and performance vs what is possible IRL. Are the new P85D buyers that complain kids that just got their drivinglicense? Been a BMW M and Porsche driver for years. in the forums I was part of I never once saw a discussion to send a leter like this. Many cars that could never come close to the stated performance. Focus on the positives or sell the cars. By the whole discussion the only thing you managed is to lower your second hand price of the car! Well done! ;-)
The car could have 900 Hp and wouldn't be much faster than a RS7 from lets say 90-120mph. Its the lack of a second gear not the power that limits performance at higher speeds! Lock at a power curve from an AC motor (link below) and you will see that a a certain rpm level the torque drops when the maximum power is achieved. So if you could change the rpm at that point to a lower level you would have the full torque available again and you can keep up with your RS7. Yes it maybe has only 415kW but the part in the letter with high speed performance should be deleted because of this explanation!
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23100&d=1370283832
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23100&d=1370283832
Really? Name one. Oh wait. I can. Mazda overstated the RX8 by 10hp. It resulted in a class action lawsuit in which Mazda had to buy back the RX8....for overstating horsepower by 10.
The vast majority of manufacturers understate power, not the other way around. Even Tesla did with the S85, P85, and 85D.
As far as performance, I would agree that it's difficult to achieve stated 0-60 numbers in most cars without perfect tack conditions and race car drivers.
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Um, yea. Because we've only been complaining about this since July 17th last month(sarcasm) when the announced the L upgrade which requires a hardware upgrade and we all finally realized that the promised performance update to unlock high speed performance couldn't be done in software alone. We predicted they'd announce this L upgrade back in March and have been secretly working to together to figure out how we can extort(sarcasm) Tesla
. Had to stick that "sarcasm" inside that sentence because several people I can think of will actually try and quote me out of context.- - - Updated - - -
That's all been done over and over and beaten to death.
If you mean add all of that to the letter, then I might agree with you except it would make the letter very very long. I think this is just the first step and more detailed letters can follow if needed.
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I agree that having a vbox acceleration range data side by side with a P85D would be optimal. I drove an RS7 and it was obvious just from the seat of the pants that it was quite a bit quicker than a P85D from a roll. I've had 3 occasions myself when next to an RS7 on 580, 680, and 880 where we both punched it at 65 or 70 and I fell behind quickly even with an SOC around 80%.
It was similar to this:
[video]https://youtu.be/ABic0vQtgwc[/video]
Fast forward to 1:15.
I didn't yet own my vbox when I test drove an RS7. I think it's time to revisit that and bring it along.
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What nature would that be? The P85D accelerates exactly as fast as it should for a car that has 550 hp.
Andyw2100, this is a great initiative and a good letter. I feel maybe you also should include some additional shortcommings with the P85D;
- Range lower than first announced (Range actually reduced instead of increased as Elon advertised on the D-event)
- Autopilot considerably delayed ( Allmost an year since the D-event, still no autopilot autosteer )
- EU-cars missing the auto closing charging port ( It was never communicated that only US cars got this )
- Range lower than first announced (Range actually reduced instead of increased as Elon advertised on the D-event)
- Autopilot considerably delayed ( Allmost an year since the D-event, still no autopilot autosteer )
- EU-cars missing the auto closing charging port ( It was never communicated that only US cars got this )
I currently have a P85 and I'm thinking of getting a P90Dl next year. But if the performance is not "really" there then I might just go for the S85D instead.
I agree with letters written to Tesla on this subject, They need to be accurate with their specs especially when you pay quite a bit for those higher performance models. I don't know why people criticize this post and the letter.
I love the Tesla that I have but if I'm going to pay extra for the added performance I expected it to be accurately specified.
Tesla needs to spec all their models the same way and not make a particular model specified differently.
I agree with letters written to Tesla on this subject, They need to be accurate with their specs especially when you pay quite a bit for those higher performance models. I don't know why people criticize this post and the letter.
I love the Tesla that I have but if I'm going to pay extra for the added performance I expected it to be accurately specified.
Tesla needs to spec all their models the same way and not make a particular model specified differently.
Range and autopilit could be included, but the missing automated chargeport is as you mention EU-specific so not really relevant for an open letter like this. Of course my main issue with the infamous missing seats was an issue on both sides of the pond. So that could have been included as well.
Problem is that including all issues would lead to a letter so long that you could guarantee it never being read by the Musk-man himself.
Very interesting thread. I mean let's all agree manufacturer published 0-60 times always had the disclaimer *your performance will vary depending on a significant number of variables.
Has anybody thought of the alternative-- what if Tesla came back with its exact testing conditions and proved the 0-60 times. What happens then?
Also, we all know Tesla does have its "free passes," if you seriously expect a response let's zoom out and hold the entire auto industry accountable for everything they state including MPG's. We know Tesla has far harsher scrutiny than other autos. How can you explain Motortrend getting better 0-60 times? From what it seems, disclosure of testing methods is wanted. The extortionist part is trying to get the new fuse and hardware free instead of paying for it. At this point...you get my drift
Has anybody thought of the alternative-- what if Tesla came back with its exact testing conditions and proved the 0-60 times. What happens then?
Also, we all know Tesla does have its "free passes," if you seriously expect a response let's zoom out and hold the entire auto industry accountable for everything they state including MPG's. We know Tesla has far harsher scrutiny than other autos. How can you explain Motortrend getting better 0-60 times? From what it seems, disclosure of testing methods is wanted. The extortionist part is trying to get the new fuse and hardware free instead of paying for it. At this point...you get my drift
I don't want to sign the letter as stated. I do want to say that I agree that Tesla is screwing up their communications. AGAIN. Which is a risk to the company, in my opinion as a stockholder. And they need to understand that this exact sort of communications screwup, promising something which they fail to deliver, is a *recurring* problem. This oddly isn't mentioned in the letter, which is why I don't want to sign it.
This isn't the worst screwup either -- the withdrawal of prepaid Ranger service is probably the most damaging (I expect to be telling a couple of dozen people not to buy the car because of it). As far as I can tell, none of the other screwups have reached "don't buy the car" levels.
Maybe I should set up a similar letter regarding the Ranger service issue. It would be a shorter letter, since the point is that people who live more than 200 miles from a service center were convinced to buy the car due to Ranger service, and now must be told not to buy the car due to astronomical travel costs to get warranty service, which seems inclined to drive customers away.
This isn't the worst screwup either -- the withdrawal of prepaid Ranger service is probably the most damaging (I expect to be telling a couple of dozen people not to buy the car because of it). As far as I can tell, none of the other screwups have reached "don't buy the car" levels.
Maybe I should set up a similar letter regarding the Ranger service issue. It would be a shorter letter, since the point is that people who live more than 200 miles from a service center were convinced to buy the car due to Ranger service, and now must be told not to buy the car due to astronomical travel costs to get warranty service, which seems inclined to drive customers away.
several off-topic posts moved to Snippiness
And to be clear, the only deleted posts were one where a forum member was personally and directly and rudely insulted and the responses to that. No topical content has been moved, changed, deleted or "censored".
And to be clear, the only deleted posts were one where a forum member was personally and directly and rudely insulted and the responses to that. No topical content has been moved, changed, deleted or "censored".
Well Tesla has never displayed such a disclaimer. But
Perfect, then we know under which conditions to be able to do it
MPG, as far from the real world as it may be, is a very clear and defined standard testing, so not comparable. In Europe they will be changing the standards soon to be more in line with real world use.
Motortrend, 1 foot rollout and one of the first cars with less restrictions. The ludicrous upgrade is a product of a need Tesla identified when the P85D got out to customers. As you may have read about there has been some early cases with stranded P85Ds. Incoming data from user owned P85Ds showed that the battery guarantee would be a costly thing if they did not turn the performance down. This is just my speculation.
No, not trying to get the Ludicrous for free as I and several others filled our first complaint with Tesla back in mid April, that they have come up with one possible fix (Ludicrous) is good. At this point ... you get my drift
I think the arguments of the auto industry typically does XYZ, while accurate, are a little off base. Firstly, because everyone touts how UNLIKE a normal auto-maker Tesla is and how they love that. I think it's a bit disingenuous to go both ways there.
More importantly though, unless my memory is incorrect, the P85 and 85 both did as good or better in their stated 0-60 numbers. No one complained then because it was accurate (or understated). Because of that, I don't think an argument about what is the norm is valid considering Tesla did not previously follow "the norm".
More importantly though, unless my memory is incorrect, the P85 and 85 both did as good or better in their stated 0-60 numbers. No one complained then because it was accurate (or understated). Because of that, I don't think an argument about what is the norm is valid considering Tesla did not previously follow "the norm".
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