Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

[AmpedRealtor]

Calling Judge Judy...

 

[cynix]

Wow. First of all, you don't know if anything you said is fact. All you know is the number that was posted on the website. All of your hypothetical gymnastics are just that.

That is exactly the point. The following are the facts:

* Tesla posted various numbers on their website.
* David Noland claims that someone from Tesla told him they're working on a clarification.
* Tesla did not publish any clarification until a year later.

vgrinshpun's claim that David Noland's source "must be from corporate engineering" is unsubstantiated. Nobody but David Noland knows who that source is.

 

[Canuck]

I think Bob did it.

 

[lolachampcar]

Or Elon was having an affair and talking in his sleep :0

 

[vgrinshpun]

Wait...
Does Elon know Bob??

 

[lolachampcar]

and that is the question

 

[Dwu0212]

To intentionally mislead the public and let them believe that "691 hp motor power" was actually 691 hp.

If you look at my posting history, before JB's blog, you'll see I stood up many times for Tesla and said that I didn't believe they intentionally mislead us and that they were trying to figure out how to solve this. And then Tesla came out with their "in the coming months" high speed update promise and we all knew that they were going to fix this and make it right. But the second part of that update never came.

Then JB posted his blog and it was that instant that I knew this was intentional all along. And before you go all on again about them stating what they were required to under ECE R85:


Consider the following:

• Tesla stated "691 hp motor power" on their website in multiple places. It did not state anywhere that "hp motor power" meant something other than hp produced by motors. There was no asterisk next to the horsepower spec stating that this is not actual horsepower produced by the production vehicle.
• The only place ECE R85 was referenced was inside the owners manuals and even these didn't contain the that reference until after the P85D was already shipping. Are we to expect that prospective buyers doing their research are supposed find this reference first in the owners manual?
• The subsystems page in the manual lists individual motor powers and does not add the front and rear motors together. In fact, if you add up front and rear motors, you get 728 hp, not 691 hp.
• Publications for over a year now have been publicizing 691 hp, not "hp motor power". Why hasn't tesla corrected them and why are they all still quoting 691 hp when the car only makes 480 to 555 hp depending on state of charge?
• The sales people repeatedly stated the P85D makes "691 horsepower" without ever adding the term "motor power".
• Elon Musk himself has been quoted as saying the P85D has 691 hp and did not use the term motor power. He's also been quoted as saying the P85D has 50% more power than the P85.
• If they were going to list a combined horsepower number, they had an obligation to list the power that the P85D actually makes. They do for the other Model S trims. In addition, since the P85D is the only Model S to lose power as the SOC declines in it's normal daily driving range, they should have clarified that the 555 hp is only at 90% SOC or greater and that below that, power will decline as charge declines. This is not true on the other Model S variants until you get much deeper in to charge state.
• Ignoring repeated multiple letters and emails over MONTHS asking for clarification about the horsepower rating. We get responses for everything else we ask but those that inquired about this got nothing. If they were being so above board about this with nothing to hide, how come they refused to respond to the question of "why is my car only making 480 to 555 hp (depending on SOC) when it was advertised at 691 hp"?
• Just because they test according to R85 to arrive at motor power ratings doesn't mean they get to use that in place of actual horsepower specified. Nowhere in the regulation does it state you can substitute horsepower rating of the vehicle with motor power capability of the drivetrain (with a power source not supplied). These are two entirely separate things. One is the actual horsepower produced by the vehicle. The other is an irrelevant specification that can't be reached with the shipping battery. It's only possible value would be knowing your drivetrain could handle more power if a battery with more power became available in the future.

- - - Updated - - -



It does if they violated the FTC's "Truth in Advertising" laws:

Federal Trade Commission Act (15 U.S.C. § 41-58)

wow, I don't think anybody can explain better than that, well done.

It's sad people still going to find excuses for Tesla

 

[lolachampcar]

or maybe, just maybe, there are some people that knew the car was not going to perform like a 700 hp ICE up top (knowing that a 700 hp 5K lb ICE can not perform like a MS down low) and thus do not think it is a big deal. The saying tempest in a tea pot comes to mind.

Now spec a 10.9 1/4 and deliver an 11.4 and you have my attention.

 

[30seconds]

or maybe, just maybe, there are some people that knew the car was not going to perform like a 700 hp ICE up top (knowing that a 700 hp 5K lb ICE can not perform like a MS down low) and thus do not think it is a big deal. The saying tempest in a tea pot comes to mind.

Now spec a 10.9 1/4 and deliver an 11.4 and you have my attention.

The 1/4 spec issue is a real head scratcher for me. Up to this point the cars have hit performance numbers and this seems to be a pretty unambiguous one. In terms of what may be the case I think the most likely is that they thought they had the fuse/ battery issue sorted and it ended up that they did not. Maybe repeated runs at that level of sustained power would cause damage to either the battery or fuse and they had to put in limiters until issue is solved.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

If Tesla cannot even hit the 1/4 mile metric that it, itself, put out recently then there is something seriously wrong in Tesla's upper management and we, as a group, need to stop making excuses. I may have a more cynical view than others, but my belief is that all of these issues can be tracked back to Elon Musk. He is the CEO and is known to be a micro manager. Jerome Guillen was essentially pushed out of the company by way of a demotion by Elon to a non-SVP role, when by all owner accounts Jerome was the one person at Tesla that could be counted on to clear things up and make things right. Tesla via Musk is changing its priorities.

My fear is that Elon has surrounded himself with yes-men and nobody seems to be willing to challenge him. Nothing that happens at Tesla at this level happens without Musk's knowledge and approval. Musk is no stranger to stretching the truth, he has done that from day one. From the prominently misleading pricing when Model S was first launched (remember they factored time value of money at $45/hr refilling at the pump before complaints were filed in California, forcing Tesla to tone it down), to Musk's downplaying of drive unit problems as a 50 cent cable tie and "forum noise", to Musk's dumbing-down of the problems in China as "charging confusion" as well as him insulting his own sales staff in that country, then we have the overly optimistic "at 65 MPH" range figures at D launch, then Musk's launch of Autopilot almost a year before it would go to beta release... we have an embarrassment of riches here with regard to how Elon has been stretching the truth at every turn.

 

[WarpedOne]

Ahm, no offense intended but where we you for the last 8 years?
It has been this way since the day Musk payed for the bill at tesla motors.

One who pays the bills, has the final call.

 

[Andyw2100]

If Tesla cannot even hit the 1/4 mile metric that it, itself, put out recently then there is something seriously wrong in Tesla's upper management and we, as a group, need to stop making excuses. I may have a more cynical view than others, but my belief is that all of these issues can be tracked back to Elon Musk. He is the CEO and is known to be a micro manager. Jerome Guillen was essentially pushed out of the company by way of a demotion by Elon to a non-SVP role, when by all owner accounts Jerome was the one person at Tesla that could be counted on to clear things up and make things right. Tesla via Musk is changing its priorities.

My fear is that Elon has surrounded himself with yes-men and nobody seems to be willing to challenge him. Nothing that happens at Tesla at this level happens without Musk's knowledge and approval. Musk is no stranger to stretching the truth, he has done that from day one. From the prominently misleading pricing when Model S was first launched (remember they factored time value of money at $45/hr refilling at the pump before complaints were filed in California, forcing Tesla to tone it down), to Musk's downplaying of drive unit problems as a 50 cent cable tie and "forum noise", to Musk's dumbing-down of the problems in China as "charging confusion" as well as him insulting his own sales staff in that country, then we have the overly optimistic "at 65 MPH" range figures at D launch, then Musk's launch of Autopilot almost a year before it would go to beta release... we have an embarrassment of riches here with regard to how Elon has been stretching the truth at every turn.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. (That will probably surprise no one.)

The one thing that I hope you are wrong about (though I fear you are not) is the part about Jerome really being "gone." Unless I've missed something (and I may have) that is still not the official word. Last I heard, officially Jerome is still on a leave of absence until the end of the year. I'm really hoping he returns, for exactly the reasons you've laid out.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Ahm, no offense intended but where we you for the last 8 years?
It has been this way since the day Musk payed for the bill at tesla motors.

One who pays the bills, has the final call.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it's right. We should stop supporting such contortions of reality. Steve Jobs had a famous "reality distortion field" about him when it came to how he sold Apple products and how he framed arguments. However, I don't remember Jobs ever misleading customers or stretching the truth along the lines of what we have seen Tesla via Musk do on a regular basis.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. (That will probably surprise no one.)

The one thing that I hope you are wrong about (though I fear you are not) is the part about Jerome really being "gone." Unless I've missed something (and I may have) that is still not the official word. Last I heard, officially Jerome is still on a leave of absence until the end of the year. I'm really hoping he returns, for exactly the reasons you've laid out.

I share your hope as well, but I tend to be more cynical about these sorts of things for better or worse. In the last year it seems like Tesla's senior management has become less accessible than it used to be, and less responsive to owner concerns.

 

[yak-55]

Ahm, no offense intended but where we you for the last 8 years?
It has been this way since the day Musk payed for the bill at tesla motors.

One who pays the bills, has the final call.

Yes. And the fish rots from the head....

 

[lolachampcar]

People vote with their wallets so we will see if the company's direction is a problem. I suspect that, when taken as a whole, Tesla is still an incredibly compelling company.

 

[Andyw2100]

I suspect that, when taken as a whole, Tesla is still an incredibly compelling company.

Tesla is still an incredibly compelling company.

I think the question many of us have, and the concern many of us share is how long Tesla will remain an incredibly compelling company if some of the missteps taken in the recent past continue.

 

[vgrinshpun]

One way to minimize missteps would be to slow down and play it safe. At which point, I suspect, the company will lose a lot of its appeal and ensure its eventual demise.

There is a distinction between constructive criticism and self-righteous indignation. Let’s keep this in mind as I hope nobody here wants to throw the baby out with bathwater.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

People vote with their wallets so we will see if the company's direction is a problem. I suspect that, when taken as a whole, Tesla is still an incredibly compelling company.

Tesla is still an incredibly compelling company.

I think the question many of us have, and the concern many of us share is how long Tesla will remain an incredibly compelling company if some of the missteps taken in the recent past continue.

I agree with both of you. Tesla is an incredibly compelling company - the only one that sells a car that I want. I want my next car to also be a Tesla. I just see some aspects of the company going in a negative direction and I wish I could do something to stop it, or help. Since I don't have Musk's ear, I vent in the forum.

 

[brianman]

People vote with their wallets so we will see if the company's direction is a problem. I suspect that, when taken as a whole, Tesla is still an incredibly compelling company.

I worry it's not that simple. Political and big $ maneuvering still can kill off Tesla regardless of what we think as customers. As such, I worry about unnecessary missteps increasing that risk.