Letter to Mr. Musk from a 1-day old outdated Model S owner

[Shumdit]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a PATH to upgrade (even at a cost to the consumer). Only reason I say so is that like many, I PAID to be a BETA tester for Tesla. This is unprecedented, to say the least. I've been in IT for a LONG time never paid to beta test anything for anyone.

I would think that since we provide a value to Tesla by allowing them to collect all that data that they are now leveraging to perfect (or at least IMPROVE) their product, we should be provided a path to make use of that information data in OUR cars at a reasonable cost.

I know... people in Hell want Ice water.... doesn't mean they're going to get it. I'm just saying, I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for an upgrade path at cost.

I answered this in another thread but the issue is that it would take a lot of time/money to design a upgrade for AP1.0 cars and given the cost of some other update retrofits ($500 parking sensors cost over $6000 as a retrofit, $500 power folding mirrors were $2700 for another) it seems like it would be a very expensive conversion. I have no doubt that were it made available it could easily cost more than $20000 to retrofit. Before you think that sounds crazy you need to look at those past examples and also remember this is a different system completely with a different harness, computer, sensors, cameras, etc.
So, assuming it is a $20k or more update how many people would sign up for it instead trading into another model s/x with it? Very few if any, which is why the effort to design such a retrofit would be a foolish use of resources when bring the model 3 to market is where those resources need to go.

 

[Canuck]

"Discontinued" seems more neutral and more accurate in this context, since it is typically used to describe a product that is no longer in production or for sale, not simply something not in use.

It's strange that a word like "obsolete" has an emotional attachment to it such that people prefer not to use it, and prefer "discontinue". I understand emotional connections with swear words, body part words, but not words that have no meaning outside of what they are defined to mean. It's fine for people to prefer "discontinued" over "obsolete" but that doesn't make it a better or more proper word. The English language has evolved. Discontinued is from old Latin and requires an old Latin prefix to an old Latin origin word to give it meaning. Obsolete arose in the 16th century to fill a needed void that only a new word can.

I attribute the bad emotions connected to "obsolete" with consumerism. It's fine to have a product that is no longer produced, but not one that is obsolete, when according to the Oxford dictionary definition it means the same thing.

It's also fine to point to an American dictionary but, with respect, "obsolete" arose in England in the 16th century so perhaps the Oxford English dictionary definition is the proper one? The press in America use the word correctly.

In any event, this only started because some of us here have used the word "obsolete" when Tesla released AP2.0 in order to refer to AP1.0. Myself and others were told a few times we were using the wrong word and I bit my tongue until this thread. It's not the wrong word. It may not be liked by some but that's due to attaching emotions to a word that it doesn't require.

 

[ohmman]

It's strange that a word like "obsolete" has an emotional attachment to it such that people prefer not to use it, and prefer "discontinue". I understand emotional connections with swear words, body part words, but not words that have no meaning outside of what they are defined to mean. It's fine for people to prefer "discontinued" over "obsolete" but that doesn't make it a better or more proper word. The English language has evolved. Discontinued is from old Latin and requires an old Latin prefix to an old Latin origin word to give it meaning. Obsolete arose in the 16th century to fill a needed void that only a new word can.

I attribute the bad emotions connected to "obsolete" with consumerism. It's fine to have a product that is no longer produced, but not one that is obsolete, when according to the Oxford dictionary definition it means the same thing.

It's also fine to point to an American dictionary but, with respect, "obsolete" arose in England in the 16th century so perhaps the Oxford English dictionary definition is the proper one? The press in America use the word correctly.

In any event, this only started because some of us here have used the word "obsolete" when Tesla released AP2.0 in order to refer to AP1.0. Myself and others were told a few times we were using the wrong word and I bit my tongue until this thread. It's not the wrong word. It may not be liked by some but that's due to attaching emotions to a word that it doesn't require.

Oh, you Canadian's don't know good word's from bad word's.

 

[brianman]

Is turning a word into it's negative by adding "dis" as concise as it's own word: "obsolete"?

I wasn't making a judgement one way or another. You were lamenting the absence of a word with a specified meaning. I was pointing to one already in common use by Amazon.com and elsewhere.

 

[ohmman]

This isn't an emotion thing. Ask my wife: it seems I don't have the benefit of emotion.

Usage is how we define words - there's no such thing as a fixed definition, 16th century be damned. Many times it drives me nuts, because I either don't want to see certain words make it into the dictionary, or because I don't agree with the new usage. But it's been the rule of language since language existed. The common usage of the word obsolete is clearly not "just stopped making it yesterday." I can get my head around that being the technical term, but it's not staying that way. If so, let's all look around ourselves and enjoy the obsolescence of our furniture, lighting, computers, phones, homes, etc. Basically everything is obsolete except for a couple of very new shiny things. Is that the commonly accepted definition? If I went to London tomorrow and asked an Englishman about his obsolete teacup, would he say, "Yeah, I love this horse-and-buggy thing," or would he look at me as if I'm off my rocker? And yes, I did just go full stereotype there.

I'm going to leave some synonyms here and ask that @Canuck and others cycle through these when referring to moldy versions of Teslas. For now, I have to run - I'm jumping into my archaic Model S for a quick electric spin.

 

[Canuck]

The common usage of the word obsolete is clearly not "just stopped making it yesterday."

But I never took issue with "common usage". Common usage doesn't mean another use is wrong. I took issue with this:

Obsolete is also wrong. These two words are thrown around quite a bit on TMC, I'm assuming because people don't understand their definition.

So I pointed out this:

ob·so·lete
adjective
1. no longer produced or used; out of date.

Then you did this to me by going to "common usage"...

 

[ohmman]

But I never took issue with "common usage". Common usage doesn't mean another use is wrong. I took issue with this:



So I pointed out this:



Then you did this by going to "common usage"...

View attachment 200749

Fine. I misspoke. It must have been... the beer?

From now on, I'll say "people are really misusing this term relative to common usage, which dictates definition by the laws of language." Will we be square?

 

[dsm363]

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a PATH to upgrade (even at a cost to the consumer). Only reason I say so is that like many, I PAID to be a BETA tester for Tesla. This is unprecedented, to say the least. I've been in IT for a LONG time never paid to beta test anything for anyone.

I would think that since we provide a value to Tesla by allowing them to collect all that data that they are now leveraging to perfect (or at least IMPROVE) their product, we should be provided a path to make use of that information data in OUR cars at a reasonable cost.

I know... people in Hell want Ice water.... doesn't mean they're going to get it. I'm just saying, I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for an upgrade path at cost.

It is reasonable but if that upgrade cost is $20,000+ and takes Tesla over 2 days to do it do you think they would offer it? They would have a lot to retrofit to add the 8 cameras and upgrade the other parts of the car needed. It probably simply isn't practical. You weren't beta testing anything. If anything you got a mature version of Autopilot 1.0 which will continue to get better.

 

[BobinBoulder]

It is reasonable but if that upgrade cost is $20,000+ and takes Tesla over 2 days to do it do you think they would offer it? They would have a lot to retrofit to add the 8 cameras and upgrade the other parts of the car needed. It probably simply isn't practical. You weren't beta testing anything. If anything you got a mature version of Autopilot 1.0 which will continue to get better.

Nope... my user agreement SPECIFICALLY said it was BETA. You can dispute anything else I said, but the user agreement I agreed to said BETA, and I very clearly paid for it.

Now, prices haven't gone up by 20K, so I doub there is that much of an investment in hardware. The retrofit is another matter, but these guys have build the first commercially available electric car. I think they can figure out how to put a half dozen cameras on my car.

 

[HumanGenome]

I think they can figure out how to put a half dozen cameras on my car.

They technically could, but it's not worth their time. It takes a full day just to swap a 12 volt battery, imagine the labor adding the ultrasonic sensors, the new cameras, the water cooled computer, swapping out the Mobileye chip, testing the new systems, etc. All to please a few thousand customers that would pay for a hardware suite they probably make very little money on? Their time is better spent elsewhere and heading into the future than the complexity of huge retrofit jobs.

 

[sandpiper]

Nope... my user agreement SPECIFICALLY said it was BETA. You can dispute anything else I said, but the user agreement I agreed to said BETA, and I very clearly paid for it.

Now, prices haven't gone up by 20K, so I doub there is that much of an investment in hardware. The retrofit is another matter, but these guys have build the first commercially available electric car. I think they can figure out how to put a half dozen cameras on my car.

They certainly can. But Elon's comment was that it would cost more than the value of the car. I see no reason to doubt that. It's probably highly intrusive and would require a lot of labour.

 

[Shumdit]

They certainly can. But Elon's comment was that it would cost more than the value of the car. I see no reason to doubt that. It's probably highly intrusive and would require a lot of labour.

To clarify, I took it to mean the swap would not cost more than the cost of the car but rather considerably more than trading would cost. I could be mistaken about that but in any case who would pay crazy money to adapt the AP2.0 when you already have AP1.0 and apples to apples trading would be cheaper the the "Upgrade"? Maybe a signature red founder's edition model x? If owned by someone with more money than sense.

 

[sandpiper]

To clarify, I took it to mean the swap would not cost more than the cost of the car but rather considerably more than trading would cost. I could be mistaken about that but in any case who would pay crazy money to adapt the AP2.0 when you already have AP1.0 and apples to apples trading would be cheaper the the "Upgrade"? Maybe a signature red founder's edition model x? If owned by someone with more money than sense.

I took it to mean that the cost would be more than the value of the car. There is one fellow on this site (wk057) who installed an autopilot in a classic car, and he could speak better toward this than I could, but he did comment that it was an incredible amount of labour. And AP2.0 would certainly be worse.

There is exactly zero chance that Tesla ever offers to upgrade older vehicles.

 

[Shumdit]

I took it to mean that the cost would be more than the value of the car. There is one fellow on this site (wk057) who installed an autopilot in a classic car, and he could speak better toward this than I could, but he did comment that it was an incredible amount of labour. And AP2.0 would certainly be worse.

There is exactly zero chance that Tesla ever offers to upgrade older vehicles.

I agree with the last sentence. I just don't think it would cost 6 figures to do a conversion if they did want to offer it. I know about the AP1.0 on a classic retrofit you mentioned and this would be harder in many respects but still I can't see that being the cost. I think $20 to 25 thousand would not be out of the realm of possibly being the cost which might as well be $100K since they would have the same # of people lining up to have it done.

 

[artsci]

People were similarly angry when they just missed parking sensors or Autopilot or the facelift. And no doubt there will be people with the new hardware which will just miss the next version. If Tesla was going to give compensation they would have given it already. The best case scenario is Tesla offers retrofits (for a price). No way they offer any sort of compensation for a feature they didn't promise in the first place when selling the vehicle to you.

Keep in mind the cars with the new hardware will go some time missing the standard autopilot features (they don't have the software yet to support it). Plus the price is higher. The previous Autopilot was $2500 or $3000 (depending on when you got it). The new one is $5000 for the basic and $8000 for autonomous.

Some of us can update our cars without Tesla's help, and we do. But there are certain things that prove to be impossible (expect perhaps for wk057). That's the way it is with high technology products -- always moving forward and changing and almost never looking back. Am I resentful that I can't have AP in any form? No. Do I want it? Not really, but I'm happy for the people that have it.

Resentment gets one nothing but unhappy moments.

 

[pilotSteve]

Some of us can update our cars without Tesla's help, and we do. But there are certain things that prove to be impossible (expect perhaps for wk057). That's the way it is with high technology products -- always moving forward and changing and almost never looking back. Am I resentful that I can't have AP in any form? No. Do I want it? Not really, but I'm happy for the people that have it.

Resentment gets one nothing but unhappy moments.

And @artsci specifically has offered owners some nice upgrades! I love his front view camera kit. Since I sold my 2012 that had the camera its time for me to buy his new version for my 2016 when its ready!

 

[FlyF4]

Cars always have and always will continue to improve, not just Tesla, but every make. If a car owner expects a car to not improve after they bought it, then we would all be driving the Ford model T today, a hundred years later.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

Cars always have and always will continue to improve, not just Tesla, but every make. If a car owner expects a car to not improve after they bought it, then we would all be driving the Ford model T today, a hundred years later.

Before Tesla, all of us were

 

[SammyJr.]

An hour after I picked up my 85D, the 90D was announced. However, I did get the new roof and LTE as a nice surprise. Point is, this is just what Tesla is about.

what new roof are you referring to?

 

[Barklikeadog]

Fun thread
What will Tesla do for customers who are being promised: Full Self Driving Capability ??

If regulators suddenly decide next year that to be considered self-driving, the car needs 10 cameras instead of 3... will
Tesla recall all autos and install the cameras free of charge?