Level 3 Autonomy - In Production

[AnxietyRanger]

For those who care, this is being discussed in the Autonomous Vehicles forum: First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona

One quote there of Audi's work beyond the first Level 3 car:

one of the difference between Tesla and someone like Audi is that Audi is not late with their promises and neither do they overpromise.
They said L3 Traffic Jam Pilot in 2017 and here it is. They are also saying L4 Highway Full Speed Pilot and AI ZONE (L4 Parking Lots) in 2019/2020 and i actually believe them.

They showed their concept Elaine in the auto show just days ago.

- has much more advanced zFAS controller than the one used in A8's Traffic Jam Pilot.
- has two forward lidar
- (probably uses mobileye eyeq4 which goes into prod end of 2017)

From Audi

The new generation processor has more computing power and refined sensors with even greater range and precision. The Audi Elaine can therefore serve its owner as a highway pilot, relieving the burden on the driver over extended distances. The highway pilot is an extension of the traffic jam pilot in the A8 and allows piloted driving at speeds from 60 to 130 km/h (37.3 to 80.8 mph), which in most countries is the maximum permissible speed.

When the highway pilot is active, the Audi Elaine changes lanes automatically – it can pass and then return to the original lane, for example. It can initiate, perform and complete such actions autonomously, without any involvement of the person behind the wheel. If the driver does want to intervene, they can do so spontaneously at any time.

Audi AI Zone

The networking of the car and the infrastructure is crucial for driverless mobility. The driver parks the Audi in a designated area (the handover zone) and exits the vehicle. From there, the car drives automatically and unoccupied into a multistory parking garage offering a variety of services, such as a car wash, a package station, a gas station or a charging post. Thanks to Audi AI, the car does all of this itself. Connected with its surroundings, the intelligent Audi can even locate an unmarked parking space on the side of the road and pull precisely into it.

At the desired time, the vehicle is back in the handover zone, ready for its next journey. Drivers can follow the actions of their vehicle at all times and even add new tasks using an app.

Also AI Zone isn't just some concept. They've been working on it for some time!

18 mins

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Prior to watching those videos, I was confident that Audi and Mercedes were about 5 years behind Autopilot, but man, I was so wrong.... they are about 8 years behind autopilot. it's hilarious.

Can you imagine the videos tesla owners could produce that would make the tesla look like it has level 5?

I will believe it, when I watch Marques Brownlee drive it and then I will actually be impressed by it and not give a half hearted, neato guys... thanks for letting me drive your new ride....

Audi and Mercedes are so behind Tesla on autopilot.

Meanwhile,all the owners on this forum are actually uploading car driving data to Tesla as they sleep.... Meanwhile, mercedes and audi do a few test scenarios with a little promo video and think it shows something better....

AP1 was a great achievement by Tesla, I would say it was genuinely ~three years ahead of what the competition was delivering in the auto-steering driver's aid arena in production cars. So some of the hubris for Tesla is deserved and warranted even. That said, AP2 so far is not very good and definitely not the best on the market - that crown still goes to AP1 and Volvo ProPilot 2 and GM Supercruise are getting there as well.

But the approach to Level 3+ is completely different, though. Nobody but Audi is showing such a genuine progress to market in Level 3 and its legal acceptance, I'd argue. Who else is talking the car and the company being responsible anytime soon? Nobody else, I'd argue.

This is not some PR Audi just whipped up, I remember watching Audi keynote after keynote showing their progress on this since the noughties - and letting press drive these cars too. The zFAS system, first of which appears in the 2018 Audi A8, was shown first I think in 2009-2010 range. It took up the whole trunk then - and already it self-drove quite confidently.

Just because they didn't ship this as beta in consumer cars and are very conservative in its production roll-out, does not mean they are necessarily behind at all in the Level 3+ stuff. It can be argued they may be ahead, though it is of course hard to tell what other companies have in their labs.

Audi has a website documenting this progress and I also remember following it year by year back then, so it did happen...

Audi Digital Illustrated - Piloted driving / Driver assistance systems

They've been working towards the 2018 Audi A8 and the systems beyond that for a very long time, in a very methodological manner - that aims at taking legal responsibility for the car's driving. None of the previous driver's aids even in the latest Audis are this system. So you could say, in a way, Audi is rebooting their self-driving with the zFAS. But they started that re-boot in the noughties...

They take measured steps to get there, sure, and their approach is different from Tesla's (Elon is on record as saying your insurance should take responsibility for Tesla's self-driving, not Tesla) but I think there is reason to believe what Audi releases, will be on a different level of reliability compared to what Tesla does. Audi is also looking at a much more redundant sensor suite for each step with lidar, multi-radar as well as vision fusion...

That doesn't mean Tesla doesn't still have time to respond. Certainly they do. We shall see (!) what Tesla cooks up for EAP and FSD...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Yes, some objectivity is in order here indeed. My objectivity make me cringe at this blatant PR move by Audi.

This system has virtually no practical use:

• Less than or equal 37mph
• Divided multi lane highways
• No pedestrian recognition
• No sign recognition
• Convoy of cars in front **and** adjacent lanes

I bet that under these limitations there is actually many systems that can be declared level 3. The innovation of Audi was in carving out a very limited set of conditions in order to have their PR moment. Sad.

It is not a PR move, though. It is a legal move. The PR move was "Jack" for this system. Their "Jack" prototype with this system has been driving faster, changing lanes etc. for years now, for the press.

You assume Audi selected these limitations to get their moment in the sun, but I disagree. I have watched them work towards this moment for soon a decade now. This is their first release of their self-driving platform. They are being careful. You think they are like Tesla that releases beta stuff to get a moment in the sun, but they are not like that at all... they're German.

Audi is using this system to get legal approval for true autonomy within conservatice specifications. It isn't that the system isn't capable. It is that Audi is taking legal responsibility and working to affect jurisdictions towards actual self-driving, so they are playing it safe. I agree the parameters are very conservative, but I completely disagree with you on the reasons why they were selected.

As for pedestrian detection and sign recognition, Audis totally have those. Have had for years. My 2010 Audi A8 had them already (interestingly my 2017 Model X has neither). The Level 3 features, anyway, do not mean the car does not have other Level 2 driver's aids...

As for the Level 3, if a pedestrian or a moose etc. walks in front of the Level 3 Audi A8, the lidar and other sensors will see it and it will stop. Level 3 means the car is responsible for the entire driving interaction.

 

[MotoEvCA]

If the above demo was a Level 3, the following demo must be at least a Level 10 !!!

The above IS NOT a demo but real world Audi production. Big difference.

 

[MotoEvCA]

AP1 was a great achievement by Tesla, I would say it was genuinely ~three years ahead of what the competition was delivering in the auto-steering driver's aid arena in production cars. So some of the hubris for Tesla is deserved and warranted even. That said, AP2 so far is not very good and definitely not the best on the market - that crown still goes to AP1 and Volvo ProPilot 2 and GM Supercruise are getting there as well.

But the approach to Level 3+ is completely different, though. Nobody but Audi is showing such a genuine progress to market in Level 3 and its legal acceptance, I'd argue. Who else is talking the car and the company being responsible anytime soon? Nobody else, I'd argue.

This is not some PR Audi just whipped up, I remember watching Audi keynote after keynote showing their progress on this since the noughties - and letting press drive these cars too. The zFAS system, first of which appears in the 2018 Audi A8, was shown first I think in 2009-2010 range. It took up the whole trunk then - and already it self-drove quite confidently.

Just because they didn't ship this as beta in consumer cars and are very conservative in its production roll-out, does not mean they are necessarily behind at all in the Level 3+ stuff. It can be argued they may be ahead, though it is of course hard to tell what other companies have in their labs.

Audi has a website documenting this progress and I also remember following it year by year back then, so it did happen...

Audi Digital Illustrated - Piloted driving / Driver assistance systems

They've been working towards the 2018 Audi A8 and the systems beyond that for a very long time, in a very methodological manner - that aims at taking legal responsibility for the car's driving. None of the previous driver's aids even in the latest Audis are this system. So you could say, in a way, Audi is rebooting their self-driving with the zFAS. But they started that re-boot in the noughties...

They take measured steps to get there, sure, and their approach is different from Tesla's (Elon is on record as saying your insurance should take responsibility for Tesla's self-driving, not Tesla) but I think there is reason to believe what Audi releases, will be on a different level of reliability compared to what Tesla does. Audi is also looking at a much more redundant sensor suite for each step with lidar, multi-radar as well as vision fusion...

That doesn't mean Tesla doesn't still have time to respond. Certainly they do. We shall see (!) what Tesla cooks up for EAP and FSD...

That doesn't mean Tesla doesn't still have time to respond

There are situations like this where the talent and resources of a company as large as the VW Group (12 brands) can invest huge sums of money to develop a technology and apply it across many brands to recoup the cost in the long-term.

Tech Partners
Bosch, Continental, TTTech, Mobileye, NVIDIA and Delphi. Delphi will assume the role of future system supplier.

Audi A8 Hardware for Autonomy

• There are computers from Nvidia and other firms
• An image processor from Mobileye
• A really huge array of sensors: 12 ultrasound sensors
• Five cameras, five radars
• One infrared camera for night vision
• Lidar—the first ever offered on a production car. The unit, a forward-looking one, comes from Valeo.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

That doesn't mean Tesla doesn't still have time to respond

There are situations like this were the talent and resources of a company as large as the VW Group (12 brands) can invest huge sums of money to develop a technology and apply it across many brands to recoup the cost in the long-term.

Audi A8 Hardware for Autonomy

• There are computers from Nvidia and other firms
• An image processor from Mobileye
• A really huge array of sensors: 12 ultrasound sensors
• Five cameras, five radars
• One infrared camera for night vision
• Lidar—the first ever offered on a production car. The unit, a forward-looking one, comes from Valeo.

True. Still, Tesla has made a bold claim about vision-mostly EAS/FSD. Maybe they will deliver?

One detail: I am not sure if Audi's zFAS uses all cameras at this stage. Most of them are for the 360 view only, I believe... The biggest difference to Tesla's EAP comes from Audi's radars and the lidar... and the software which has been in validation for Level 3 for many years now...

 

[alevek]

The only advantage Tesla has is in taking customers' money for outlandish claims of capabilities that it will never deliver.

 

[skitown]

The only advantage Tesla has is in taking customers' money for outlandish claims of capabilities that it will never deliver.

I think that assertion is debatable. Volkswagen executive pleads guilty in emissions scandal

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

LOL while he's saying the system doesn't need driver interaction, the system alert him to take over when there was no problem with the traffic from what we can see.

Take a look at around 4 minutes and 50 seconds in the video

I bet the reason it failed is because of the overpass! But either way, hilarious. Major demo fail at 10mph, with clear lanes and traffic on both sides (the gap was too big)!

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

If you would actual watch and LISTEN to the video, the system passed back control to the driver because the system determined the TRAFFIC JAM had cleared (Audi has baked into the system criteria/logic to detect traffic jam conditions and when level 3 autonomy is possible).

Audi has Level 2 autonomy in production and like Tesla is working on autonomy level 4 and above. The difference being Tesla has chosen to 'sell' Full Self Driving (FSD) before it is available for public use. There is no contractual obligation for Tesla to refund purchasers of FSD should Tesla be unable to technically implement the solution successfully.

Something to think about....

In Audi land, when the car in front brakes, the traffic jam has cleared.

 

[buttershrimp]

I think I probably drove 145 of 150 miles today on autopilot. Two weeks ago, I did a 1700 mile road trip 95% of which was on autopilot. It drives better in the rain and at night than I do. It's why I believe that my worst day with autopilot is still likely to be massively ahead of the best day with any other non-tesla on the road (currently).

I don't want to sound arrogant or crazy, but the car is unbelievable. I can't describe it... I mean, I really really wanted to buy a mercedes or an audi before buying my model S, especially an S series or an A8... I tried to convince myself it would be better to wait, but I purchased the Tesla and now I can't even fathom a different car. I really hope the Audi people on this forum will give it an open-minded chance.... The Tesla is jaw dropping crazy awesome.

And before you convince yourself to wait... consider this... the talent and effort has been at Tesla over the last 10 years on self-driving tech.. I think Audi is likely the next automaker who is currently doing real work.... but it's still quite a way behind. That's like me bragging that my Tesla interior and sound system is better than Mercedes and Audi.... just because we hired a volvo interior designer... we have a lot of work to do.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

I drove 145 of 150 miles today on autopilot! The talent and effort has been at Tesla over the last 10 years on self-driving tech.. I think Audi is likely the next automaker who is currently doing real work.... but it's still quite a way behind. That's like me bragging that my Tesla interior and sound system is better than Mercedes and Audi.... just because we hired a volvo interior designer... we have a lot of work to do.

A bad day with autopilot is still massively ahead of the best day with any other non-tesla on the road.

I really am not trying to sound arrogant.... it's just amazing guys.... really really amazing. I can't describe it... I mean, I really really wanted to buy a mercedes or an audi before buying my model S... but now I can't even fathom that!!! It's that much better right now!

For those who can't afford top line Mercedes, Audi with advanced driver assist technology. m3 is the only option to get this technology in 2018. And yes, they keep updating it until they get it right, even though it may require tons of software and hardware updates in m3.

 

[chipmunk]

LOL while he's saying the system doesn't need driver interaction, the system alert him to take over when there was no problem with the traffic from what we can see.

Take a look at around 4 minutes and 50 seconds in the video

The truly comical part is that when it was veering and asked him to take over, he literally just finished a sentence explaining that level 3 is different because with level 2 you have to be prepared to take over immediately.

Edit: I guess I said the same thing a little differently

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The truly comical part is that when it was veering and asked him to take over, he literally just finished a sentence explaining that level 3 is different because with level 2 you have to be prepared to take over immediately.

Edit: I guess I said the same thing a little differently

Still this? This has been rebuked many times already. It was not asking for immediate take over. It was asking for a takeover because it determined it's driving scenario was ending (queues on both sides).

That is the normal takeover call. The user had ~10 seconds, the car remained in full control - the user just reacted fast.

The car was not veering out of control anywhere either, it was following the German bias of hugging outboard lane side in low-speeds (so that emergency vehicles have room in the middle).

 

[powertoold]

If you would actual watch and LISTEN to the video, the system passed back control to the driver because the system determined the TRAFFIC JAM had cleared (Audi has baked into the system criteria/logic to detect traffic jam conditions and when level 3 autonomy is possible).

Bullsheet. There was no reason for it to alert for a takeover in that situation, other than it's not 100% reliable. The traffic jam hadn't cleared. There was no "big gap." They were still on the same highway as before.

 

[chipmunk]

Still this? This has been rebuked many times already. It was not asking for immediate take over. It was asking for a takeover because it determined it's driving scenario was ending (queues on both sides).

That is the normal takeover call. The user had ~10 seconds, the car remained in full control - the user just reacted fast.

The car was not veering out of control anywhere either, it was following the German bias of hugging outboard lane side in low-speeds (so that emergency vehicles have room in the middle).

Your argument would be more compelling if he didn’t immediately take over and steer away from the guardrail. The car hadn’t been hugging the guardrail until it beeped and started steering towards it.

Of course my AP1 Model S has done similar....I’m not trying to claim it wouldn’t....but not in a situation like that.

Edit: And....why not revert to level 2 in that situation? Why ask for driver control just because a lane cleared up next to it? Odd.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think I probably drove 145 of 150 miles today on autopilot. Two weeks ago, I did a 1700 mile road trip 95% of which was on autopilot.

really hope the Audi people on this forum will give it an open-minded chance.... The Tesla is jaw dropping crazy awesome.

I am a Tesla and Audi owner. Long history with high-end Audis, previous daily driver before Teslas an Audi A8. I have a Tesla with AP2. And long-time enhusiast following this stuff closely.

Objectively speaking, current auto-steering systems are like this:

1. Tesla AP1
2. Volvo ProPilot 2.0
3. Tesla AP2
...
6. Audi Level 2

But the thing is, within its scenario, I expect Audi Level 3 to be number 1 on that list. For Level 2, GM's Supercruise may be number 1 when it comes.

Tesla's AP2 is objectively such a mixed bag (and downright dangerous at times) that who knows if and when it will go up or down..

There is some objectivity for you from an Audi guy.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

Still this? This has been rebuked many times already. It was not asking for immediate take over. It was asking for a takeover because it determined it's driving scenario was ending (queues on both sides).

That is the normal takeover call. The user had ~10 seconds, the car remained in full control - the user just reacted fast.

The car was not veering out of control anywhere either, it was following the German bias of hugging outboard lane side in low-speeds (so that emergency vehicles have room in the middle).

I had to watch the video again after your comment and want to call bs about driving scenario ending because the yellow truck just ahead and to the right was mostly the same distance whole the car in front was still very close in front. This traffic assist functionality needs more work and again, if this was the best game in town, i'd invest into it I'd I could afford it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Your argument would be more compelling if he didn’t immediately take over and steer away from the guardrail. The car hadn’t been hugging the guardrail until it beeped and started steering towards it.

Of course my AP1 Model S has done the same thing....I’m not trying to claim it wouldn’t....but not in a situation like that.

The argument is very factual. The speed was slowing down at the time and the system was assuming its outboard bias, which is a feature, not a bug.

The fact that the user reacted fast and chose a lane-center bias themselves is irrelevant. The car shows no sign of being out of control nor did it require immediate action.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I had to watch the video again after your comment and want to call bs about driving scenario ending because the yellow truck just ahead and to the right was mostly the same distance whole the car in front was still very close in front. This traffic assist functionality needs more work and again, if this was the best game in town, i'd invest into it I'd I could afford it.

Apparently you don't understand how the selected limits of the system work.

Its requirement is not just lead cars on adjacent lanes, it is queues on adjacent lanes. The car monitors the sides and backwards to determine whether the required queues on the adjacent lanes exist.

I agree this is a very conservative scenario. However nothing on that video suggests it is not driving by it. The queue gets too big a gap on one side, so the car initiates normal takeover for the user who has ~10 seconds to react.

In the meanwhile the car is following it's bias at low speeds towards the outboard side of the lane because that's how Germans do it (leave room for emergency vehicles in the middle).

Mind you, the prototype "Jack" has shown this system drive without queues or any such limits, Audi is just being very conservative to begin with in their production version because they take legal responsibility for it.