Level 3

[DanCar]

I would even be surprised if Mercedes beat Tesla to L4 parking

How about L4 driving? Keep in mind that Merc is using Mobileye technology, which some believe is years ahead of Tesla.

 

[diplomat33]

I would rather still wait until there is a test available for Tesla to take before assuming that Tesla can't do something. Tesla has already said that their cars can make turns at intersections, but it doesn't. Tesla collects far more data than any other company when it comes to driverless technology and they have done a fantastic job at making these features safe before releasing updates.

I am not sure what you are referring to.There is no official test, like a driving test you take at the DMV, that if a car passes it, it is declared L3. And if Tesla is able to add "making turns at intersections" that does not automatically make the system L3. You can do L3 without making turns at intersections. L3 means that the car can handle all the driving in certain situations without any supervision but needs to ask the driver to take over in other situations. So if the auto makers feels that they have that kind of system and they feel it is safe enough, they can declare it L3. Of course, L3 means that the auto maker is liable for any accident. So if an auto maker releases L3 and it gets into an accident, government regulators will investigate.

I would even be surprised if Mercedes beat Tesla to L4 parking. Even if Mercedes says you don't have to be in the vehicle, if they say that you have to monitor the vehicle and you have the power with the app to stop it if it is going to hit another car; that's not a L4 system because you are supervising and still have control.

Mercedes is saying that you will not need to monitor the vehicle at all during parking. That's what L4 parking means.

 

[diplomat33]

IF Tesla is even close to offering L3 they are doing a huge disservice to FSD owners not releasing it. I would guess a LOT of people are in my shoes and have a long daily commute MOSTLY expressway. Offering L3 would be HUGE welcome to those of us that own FSD and have long straight commutes. Heck I have 30+ miles of such straight expressway in the limited access lane that I have to constantly torque the steering wheel to avoid the "NAG". So annoying

It all depends on whether Tesla feels that the system can handle certain situations without any driver supervision. if there are cases that the system can't handle, then it is not ready to be L3 yet. That's the tricky part because the moment you remove driver supervision, you are saying that you trust the car to handle whatever happens on the road.

There is also the issue of handing over control to the driver when prompted. with L3, the driver is allowed to take their eyes off the road, their hands off the wheel and not pay attention. But when the system prompts, the driver has about 10 seconds to get back into focus and pay attention again and take control again. So L3 requires a good system for handing over control. Every L3 out there has a driver facing camera so it can monitor if the driver is really paying attention when prompted. Tesla does not have that. It would need to rely on the torque system to check if the driver really has taken control again when prompted. Not sure if the torque is enough.

 

[diplomat33]

IF Tesla is even close to offering L3 they are doing a huge disservice to FSD owners not releasing it. I would guess a LOT of people are in my shoes and have a long daily commute MOSTLY expressway. Offering L3 would be HUGE welcome to those of us that own FSD and have long straight commutes. Heck I have 30+ miles of such straight expressway in the limited access lane that I have to constantly torque the steering wheel to avoid the "NAG". So annoying

I would add to my previous post that Elon's strategy seems to be focused on going straight to L4 or L5 and skipping L3. If Tesla takes too long in getting to L4 or L5, it could create a situation where Tesla owners are "stuck" at L2 while Tesla works out L4/5 while other auto makers start offering L3 now. That would indeed be a big disservice to Tesla fans.

 

[boonedocks]

How do you define close?

sooner rather than later LOL

 

[boonedocks]

I would add to my previous post that Elon's strategy seems to be focused on going straight to L4 or L5 and skipping L3. If Tesla takes too long in getting to L4 or L5, it could create a situation where Tesla owners are "stuck" at L2 while Tesla works out L4/5 while other auto makers start offering L3 now. That would indeed be a big disservice to Tesla fans.

Could not agree more.

 

[tmp131]

I would add to my previous post that Elon's strategy seems to be focused on going straight to L4 or L5 and skipping L3. If Tesla takes too long in getting to L4 or L5, it could create a situation where Tesla owners are "stuck" at L2 while Tesla works out L4/5 while other auto makers start offering L3 now. That would indeed be a big disservice to Tesla fans.

This can be problematic for Tesla. Many people bought FSD in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 etc...by the time Tesla achieves L4 or L5, many of those owners would have changed vehicles. Saying all this, many owners (I don't know what the percentages are) are satisfied with what current FSD is offering right now at the price that they are charged.

 

[Cybermoose]

IF Tesla is even close to offering L3 they are doing a huge disservice to FSD owners not releasing it. I would guess a LOT of people are in my shoes and have a long daily commute MOSTLY expressway. Offering L3 would be HUGE welcome to those of us that own FSD and have long straight commutes. Heck I have 30+ miles of such straight expressway in the limited access lane that I have to constantly torque the steering wheel to avoid the "NAG". So annoying

Tesla is doing an entire rework on their FSD system that should be starting to be updated on customer Teslas in the very near future. Even if they are capable of L3 after this rework, that doesn't mean it would be legal. They don't even have a test ready for manufacturers to prove their vehicles are L3 capable yet but if any manufacturer is going to pursuade them to make it, it will be Tesla, the company that is going to allow autopilot turns at street intersections with their next big update.

 

[diplomat33]

Tesla is doing an entire rework on their FSD system that should be starting to be updated on customer Teslas in the very near future. Even if they are capable of L3 after this rework, that doesn't mean it would be legal. They don't even have a test ready for manufacturers to prove their vehicles are L3 capable yet but if any manufacturer is going to pursuade them to make it, it will be Tesla, the company that is going to allow autopilot turns at street intersections with their next big update.

Like I said before, there is no test. If an auto maker has L3, they can release L3 any time they want.

And adding making turns at intersections has nothing to do with L3. You don't need to make turns at intersections to release L3. For example: traffic jam pilot.

 

[Cybermoose]

I am not sure what you are referring to.There is no official test, like a driving test you take at the DMV, that if a car passes it, it is declared L3. And if Tesla is able to add "making turns at intersections" that does not automatically make the system L3. You can do L3 without making turns at intersections. L3 means that the car can handle all the driving in certain situations without any supervision but needs to ask the driver to take over in other situations. So if the auto makers feels that they have that kind of system and they feel it is safe enough, they can declare it L3. Of course, L3 means that the auto maker is liable for any accident. So if an auto maker releases L3 and it gets into an accident, government regulators will investigate.



Mercedes is saying that you will not need to monitor the vehicle at all during parking. That's what L4 parking means.

I am not saying that because Tesla will be able to do a turn means that it is level 3. I am saying that just because a Tesla may have the capability of something doesn't mean that Tesla will just release the feature immidiately. Tesla has the largest data collection when it comes to autopilot drives. Tesla released traffic light and stop sign control right before they said that turns at intersections will be the next big update, I would easily bet that they delayed the turning feature because they can collect data from millions of traffic lights and stop signs to improve the system even further before release.

For all we know, Tesla could be fighting towards getting minimal L3 legal for their vehicles, but if that were to happen, they would probably need to submit their vehicles to testing. Not like a driving test at the DMV, like a regular test that vehicles are put through already for crashes or roll overs. The NHTSA already does testing for various things that manufacturers would like to do. It's not like Tesla is going to say "okay you now have L3 on highways" and then a cop pulls you over and you show him on twitter that Elon said it was ok.

As for L4, I know what it means, I know that what Mercedes is describing is L4. All I am saying is I have my doubts that Mercedes will have that L4 system perfected before they release their car.

 

[Cybermoose]

Like I said before, there is no test. If an auto maker has L3, they can release L3 any time they want.

I really wish you lived in germany so you could test that theory, I would love to hear the results of when you get pulled over for reading a book or browsing the internet. Of course there is will a test, it might not be for every car but it will be for different systems that want their customers to have the ability to just not pay attention to the road. Even if that is in a traffic jam, I am certain that the police will not care.

 

[Cybermoose]

How about L4 driving? Keep in mind that Merc is using Mobileye technology, which some believe is years ahead of Tesla.

So this kind of goes back to what type of driving. Technically people are right and L4 could be as simple as just automatic parking. Technically a company could allow you to electronically map your home driveway and garage and then park for you when you pull off the street and get out, then just call that L4.

If we are talking about what company will be the first to actual L4 driving on highways or public roads, it's possible that another company could do L4 in one small aspect, but I don't think Tesla is going to be beat. People in this thread have already said it's like they are skipping L3 and working towards L4, which I believe is somewhat right but ultimately wrong. Tesla has been working towards L5 and they will go through every level just like any other company working on FSD. I don't think Tesla is trying to skip L3, I think they are just making it so they don't get stuck at L3 or only have limited use for their systems.

Other companies might focus really hard on one aspect and they might do well enough to rival Tesla at that one thing, but it's just one thing. Lets take traffic jams as an example; I don't get in them very often, most people don't get in them very often. Sure it will help for those people during those times but that's extremely limited. Unless you are living in one of the big cities, or there is an accident on the highway, you probably won't have any use for this feature. Also no matter what happens, traffic jam control can't really advance to L4 in any meaningful way without having L4 highway driving, because you can't get into a traffic jam, set your car to drive itself, then walk away.

I'm not saying that traffic jam control wouldn't be helpful to browse the internet or read a book, i'm just saying that it's limited and there isn't actually any evidence that Mercedes will be able to do this before a Tesla is able to

What Tesla does have going for them is that they are doing working on their systems almost everywhere. This doesn't just allow Tesla to allow L3 in more areas than other manufacturers once it's ready, but it also lets them collect data from almost every aspect of someones daily drive. This mass data collection is going to be Tesla's biggest advantage. They can look at any sort of event when your car on autopilot observes other cars too close, or objects, vehicles turning, people walking out on the street, and they can group those events and find where they can improve further.

 

[diplomat33]

I really wish you lived in germany so you could test that theory, I would love to hear the results of when you get pulled over for reading a book or browsing the internet. Of course there is will a test, it might not be for every car but it will be for different systems that want their customers to have the ability to just not pay attention to the road. Even if that is in a traffic jam, I am certain that the police will not care.

And what do you propose that test be? L3 can come in lots of different forms. L3 can be only traffic jams, all highway but not off ramps, only city streets but not traffic lights, only parking lots, etc...How do you test for all those cases? L3 just means that the car can drive without driver supervision in some conditions. Again, what test do you propose that can prove that?

 

[Cybermoose]

It's not up to me to create the test but just because mercedes might give you permission to read a book in a traffic jam, doesn't mean that the officer would. They could create a test where a car has to drive on a controlled road with certain variables that it must be able to identify and react in a proper manner, or it could be that a L2 system will need to be reviewed while enabled with 0 driver input over a certain number of miles of highway, a certain number of turns at intersections, a certain amount of miles in a traffic jam or a certain numbers of times parked; and any test in a certain number of cars to see how it preformed. I would vote for the second option because that would be real life driving. But I don't think Mercedes is going to say they can do L3, the German goverment will say okay, and the police will just politely nod when they see you playing angry birds on your phone. That would make everyone look bad if the car ever hit another Car and people learned that no one tested anything.

 

[boonedocks]

Tesla is doing an entire rework on their FSD system that should be starting to be updated on customer Teslas in the very near future. Even if they are capable of L3 after this rework, that doesn't mean it would be legal. They don't even have a test ready for manufacturers to prove their vehicles are L3 capable yet but if any manufacturer is going to pursuade them to make it, it will be Tesla, the company that is going to allow autopilot turns at street intersections with their next big update.

redux X 3.....maybe 4 by now..... LOL.

 

[Daniel in SD]

It's not up to me to create the test but just because mercedes might give you permission to read a book in a traffic jam, doesn't mean that the officer would. They could create a test where a car has to drive on a controlled road with certain variables that it must be able to identify and react in a proper manner, or it could be that a L2 system will need to be reviewed while enabled with 0 driver input over a certain number of miles of highway, a certain number of turns at intersections, a certain amount of miles in a traffic jam or a certain numbers of times parked; and any test in a certain number of cars to see how it preformed. I would vote for the second option because that would be real life driving. But I don't think Mercedes is going to say they can do L3, the German goverment will say okay, and the police will just politely nod when they see you playing angry birds on your phone. That would make everyone look bad if the car ever hit another Car and people learned that no one tested anything.

If autonomous vehicles could be validated by artificial tests then we would have had FSD over a decade ago (See: DARPA Grand Challenge (2007) - Wikipedia)
Real world testing is the only way to truly validate autonomous vehicles. I'm not sure why you think police officers In Germany won't know what the law is, though you do raise a good point that there should probably be an externally visible indication that the car is in autonomous mode. Obviously Mercedes is not going to release a system without testing it, they're the ones that will be liable if it violates traffic laws.

 

[diplomat33]

It's not up to me to create the test but just because mercedes might give you permission to read a book in a traffic jam, doesn't mean that the officer would. They could create a test where a car has to drive on a controlled road with certain variables that it must be able to identify and react in a proper manner, or it could be that a L2 system will need to be reviewed while enabled with 0 driver input over a certain number of miles of highway, a certain number of turns at intersections, a certain amount of miles in a traffic jam or a certain numbers of times parked; and any test in a certain number of cars to see how it preformed. I would vote for the second option because that would be real life driving. But I don't think Mercedes is going to say they can do L3, the German goverment will say okay, and the police will just politely nod when they see you playing angry birds on your phone. That would make everyone look bad if the car ever hit another Car and people learned that no one tested anything.

The government sets the laws. The police merely enforce them. So if the German government said that Mercedes has L3, then yes, the police will let you play angry birds while the car is driving because the law will say it is ok.

And as far as I know, Germany has set certain regulations for L3. As long as Mercedes follows the regulations, Mercedes can release L3 if they think it is ready for deployment. And if the car gets into an accident, then Mercedes would be liable.

 

[Cybermoose]

If autonomous vehicles could be validated by artificial tests then we would have had FSD over a decade ago (See: DARPA Grand Challenge (2007) - Wikipedia)
Real world testing is the only way to truly validate autonomous vehicles. I'm not sure why you think police officers In Germany won't know what the law is, though you do raise a good point that there should probably be an externally visible indication that the car is in autonomous mode. Obviously Mercedes is not going to release a system without testing it, they're the ones that will be liable if it violates traffic laws.

Oh I agree. an artificial test wouldn't really be enough to test whether a car is safe on actual public roads. I think the second option that I listed would be far superior for testing purposes. If a manufacturer had to randomly select a specific number of cars that had completed a minimum number of what it wants to have a L3 system, whether that's miles driven in a certain condition, turns completed, or times parked and reviewed the data, I think that would show whether the system was capable of L3

 

[diplomat33]

there should probably be an externally visible indication that the car is in autonomous mode.

Yes, it will be important for other vehicles on the road to know when an autonomous car is in autonomous mode. In fact, we've seen some concept cars experiment with this, with external lighting to indicate when the car is in autonomous mode.

 

[diplomat33]

Yup, it says you can use the infotainment system and/or press buttons on the dash.

You say:

"you could safely use your phone or watch Netflix until the car requests your attention"

Not sure where you get that from?

Again from the document:

• While the DRIVE PILOT feature is engaged, it con- tinuously monitors the fallback-ready user’s ability to resume driving when requested (e.g., s/he is not permitted to sleep, leave the driver’s seat, etc.).

There is a difference between monitoring the driver to make sure they are actively paying attention and monitoring to make sure that they can take when prompted. So this system will allow the driver to take their eyes off the road and do other things like use the infotainment system while L3 is on. But as the document says, the driver facing camera will make sure that the driver can take over when prompted to. This is to avoid a situation where the L3 system prompts the driver to take over and they are not able to because they are sleep or passed out.