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Lexus introducing hands-free highway L2 called "Highway Teammate"

Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
8,522
20,446
San Diego
You know, hands free driving isn’t a great idea at the current level of technology. If you need to take over, having your hand on the wheel is a great idea. Even if I had a camera based driver attention system, I’d like to have a hand on the wheel just in case.

And Tesla’s nags aren’t that big a deal. You get trained to respond to them after one or two long trips such that your brain handles them autonomously if you will (unconsciously).
 
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diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,192
8,215
Terre Haute, IN USA
yes, I hope so... as it would really suck if cadillac/others can go hands-free and Tesla can't

Agree. Elon does not want to use the driver facing camera in the Model 3 for driver attention because he assumed FSD would be further along and therefore it would quickly become obsolete anyway. But seeing the slow progress of FSD and seeing other companies like Cadillac and Lexus doing hands-free highway L2+, I think Elon should change his mind. Clearly, FSD will take longer and a driver facing camera will be useful longer than Elon thought. And not offering hands-free will be make Tesla's AP look less and less attractive compared to other systems that do offer hands-free.
 

kkillebrew

Banned
Jun 23, 2019
401
124
austin, tx
Why does a driver facing camera really matter, especially if the driver does not need to attend the wheel? Or is it just to determine culpability in an accident?

Personally I would not use any feature that monitors me with a camera while I am driving. Go Tesla!
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,192
8,215
Terre Haute, IN USA
Why does a driver facing camera really matter, especially if the driver does not need to attend the wheel? Or is it just to determine culpability in an accident?

If the driver does not need to pay attention then no, you don't need a drive facing camera. That's why you only need a driver facing camera in a L2 driver assist system.

Basically, Tesla's torque system tries to make sure your hands are on the wheel. A driver facing camera makes sure your eyes are on the road. Both are designed to make sure that the driver can intervene if the system fails. In a driver assist system, the driver is responsible so you need a way to make sure the driver is paying attention and can act if something goes wrong.
 

kkillebrew

Banned
Jun 23, 2019
401
124
austin, tx
If the driver does not need to pay attention then no, you don't need a drive facing camera. That's why you only need a driver facing camera in a L2 driver assist system.

Basically, Tesla's torque system tries to make sure your hands are on the wheel. A driver facing camera makes sure your eyes are on the road. Both are designed to make sure that the driver can intervene if the system fails. In a driver assist system, the driver is responsible so you need a way to make sure the driver is paying attention and can act if something goes wrong.
Thank you @diplomat33 for the clarification. Well put as always. Now I am 100% positive I do not want a driver facing camera.
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,192
8,215
Terre Haute, IN USA
Thank you @diplomat33 for the clarification. Well put as always. Now I am 100% positive I do not want a driver facing camera.

Why are you so against a driver facing camera? Is it just paranoia that the camera is watching you or something else?

The problem with advanced driver assist systems like AP is that they are half-way autonomous. They can control all the parts of driving, steering and braking. They can stay in the lane and go with the flow of traffic. So in some situations they actually can appear to be driving for you. So they will lull the driver into a false sense of security. But they can't always monitor and respond to the environment correctly which means that they can't drive safely. Left on their own, they will hit stuff and cause accidents. As a result, they absolutely need a way to make sure the driver is paying attention since the driver must be able to respond to the environment as needed.

A driver facing camera is the best way to do that because it makes sure that you are keeping your eyes on the road which is the best way for the driver to monitor the environment. Tesla's torque can work but is not the best because while you might have your hands on the wheel, it does not make sure you are actually paying attention. Plus, the torque system can be too easily fooled into thinking that your hands are on the wheel when in reality you are definitely not paying attention to the environment.
 

Yang_H

Member
Dec 8, 2019
99
136
Pittsburgh, PA
I personally have no problem with Tesla's hands-on-wheel AP requirement. I quickly found that all I need to do is to hang my left or right hand at the bottom of the steering wheel. It may be a tiny bit tiring at most, but no big deal at all. I also prefer this way so I won't eventually develop bad habits like texting on the phone with both hands... Sure, once the L4 driving comes I'll be more than happy to glue my eyes to the phone while riding 80mph on road, but I don't want to kill myself by the current AP yet.
 

hugh_jassol

Member
Jan 26, 2019
715
767
Los Angeles
I personally have no problem with Tesla's hands-on-wheel AP requirement. I quickly found that all I need to do is to hang my left or right hand at the bottom of the steering wheel. It may be a tiny bit tiring at most, but no big deal at all. I also prefer this way so I won't eventually develop bad habits like texting on the phone with both hands... Sure, once the L4 driving comes I'll be more than happy to glue my eyes to the phone while riding 80mph on road, but I don't want to kill myself by the current AP yet.
You didn’t answer why you were against a camera system... I was curious about this as well.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,394
6,117
Snohomish, WA
You know, hands free driving isn’t a great idea at the current level of technology. If you need to take over, having your hand on the wheel is a great idea. Even if I had a camera based driver attention system, I’d like to have a hand on the wheel just in case.

And Tesla’s nags aren’t that big a deal. You get trained to respond to them after one or two long trips such that your brain handles them autonomously if you will (unconsciously).

The problem with nags is that it's even nagging you in the first place when you are holding the steering wheel. Like I always hold the steering wheel with at least one hand, but I still get nagged. I get nagged because of the way torque sensors work. If you barely put any torque on it then it will nag, but if you put too much then it cancels it.

So from a end user perspective they suck.

From an "easy to defeat" purpose they suck as well because all it takes is velcro'ing on some steering wheel weights, and it's defeated (hence all the sleeping at the wheel YouTube videos of Tesla's).

From a "are you really paying attention" they suck too because I can easily stare out the side window or text with one hand. Hence all the rear end crashes into fire trucks. They also can't tell if you're driving drowsy like proper driver monitoring systems use (like what Subaru is using in some 2020 vehicles.

As to hands free driving I agree with you, but ONLY on AP2 as it exists today. Where it's totally non geofenced, and who knows what will happen. I do think it's going to be a bit hard to have a hand on the steering wheel with city NoA when large turns are involved, and when the car might know more about what it wants to do. Plus the whole "hands on the steering wheel" is supposed to a temporary thing until L3 or above. But, the entire purpose of L3 is not to have hands on the steering wheel, and to have a driver ready to take over. The only way the drive can be ready to take over is he they're not allowed to sleep. The only way to do that is through a driver monitoring system.

So as Tesla owners were stuck with this stupid torque sensors probably for the life of the vehicle. Ughh.

The driver facing camera in the Model 3 also can't be used for driver monitoring since it doesn't have the same kind of set up as a proper driver monitoring system like in the Subaru or the Cadillac with Supercruise.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,394
6,117
Snohomish, WA
I personally have no problem with Tesla's hands-on-wheel AP requirement. I quickly found that all I need to do is to hang my left or right hand at the bottom of the steering wheel. It may be a tiny bit tiring at most, but no big deal at all. I also prefer this way so I won't eventually develop bad habits like texting on the phone with both hands... Sure, once the L4 driving comes I'll be more than happy to glue my eyes to the phone while riding 80mph on road, but I don't want to kill myself by the current AP yet.

The problem with AP is that we do develop bad driving habits as a result using it.

The only solution to the nags is that I've found is to hold the steering wheel at the bottom of it when my wrist facing me. That's absolutely the worst way to hold it, but I never get nagged. I get nagged anytime I hold it with palm facing me. That used to work just fine on my Model S, but doesn't work on my Model 3.

Then you have false braking, and some people hold their foot over the gas which is also the worst way to drive.

As to txting the reality of the situation is lots of people use AP as an excuse to txt. Admittedly I've done it a couple times out in the middle of nowhere despite having ZERO trust in AP.
 

kkillebrew

Banned
Jun 23, 2019
401
124
austin, tx
Why are you so against a driver facing camera? Is it just paranoia that the camera is watching you or something else?

The problem with advanced driver assist systems like AP is that they are half-way autonomous. They can control all the parts of driving, steering and braking. They can stay in the lane and go with the flow of traffic. So in some situations they actually can appear to be driving for you. So they will lull the driver into a false sense of security. But they can't always monitor and respond to the environment correctly which means that they can't drive safely. Left on their own, they will hit stuff and cause accidents. As a result, they absolutely need a way to make sure the driver is paying attention since the driver must be able to respond to the environment as needed.

A driver facing camera is the best way to do that because it makes sure that you are keeping your eyes on the road which is the best way for the driver to monitor the environment. Tesla's torque can work but is not the best because while you might have your hands on the wheel, it does not make sure you are actually paying attention. Plus, the torque system can be too easily fooled into thinking that your hands are on the wheel when in reality you are definitely not paying attention to the environment.
I am not against it, I just don't like it, and yes there is a big brother feel to it. I don't particularly like the nag either but currently safeguards of some type are needed. Don't look for logic here it is feeling based, just as many choices tend to be. Regardless, the very conversion is a concession that FSD, whether Tesla or Lexus or whomever, is not yet where it needs to be. I just prefer the Tesla method. My question is why did Elon/Tesla choose not to use the driver facing camera, and why are they sticking to that decision? Was it a mistake not admitted and they are too far in to reverse it? Or is there a component to the debate we do not yet know?

Does the camera record or simply track?
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,192
8,215
Terre Haute, IN USA
My question is why did Elon/Tesla choose not to use the driver facing camera, and why are they sticking to that decision? Was it a mistake not admitted and they are too far in to reverse it? Or is there a component to the debate we do not yet know?

The official reason that Elon gave was that eye tracking is ineffective and that AP is already 4X safer without it. Here is his tweet about it:

YunuMqa.png


Interestingly, if these sources are accurate, Tesla engineers initially wanted a camera based driver monitoring system but Elon nixed the idea. So it's Elon that made them go with the torque system. The sources also mention "other sensors". I wonder if the Tesla engineers wanted additional cameras, lidar or additional radar and Elon said "no" because he thought the AP2 sensors were good enough for FSD.

Personally, I think Elon's reason is BS because there are plenty of cars with very effective camera based driver monitoring systems. Supercruise uses a very effective IR camera to track the driver attention. It sounds like he just did not like it and wanted the torque system instead.

I also get the impression that Elon probably thought that FSD would happen sooner than it has so his strategy was to use the torque system for a short period of time and then when FSD was finished, a camera system would become irrelevant. At this point, the strategy is probably to accept the downsides of the torque system and just press on to finish FSD as soon as possible.

Does the camera record or simply track?

The camera does not record anything. So I really don't think there is any "big brother" concern. It simply analyzes your face and if it sees your eyes are off the road for more than x seconds or if it detects signs of drowsiness or tiredness, it emits a visual or auditory warning or vibrates the seat to alert you. And in a more extreme case, if it detects that you've passed out or otherwise incapacitated, the car could automatically pull over safely and put the hazards on.
 
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kkillebrew

Banned
Jun 23, 2019
401
124
austin, tx
The official reason that Elon gave was that eye tracking is ineffective and that AP is already 4X safer without it. Here is his tweet about it:

YunuMqa.png


Interestingly, if these sources are accurate, Tesla engineers initially wanted a camera based driver monitoring system but Elon nixed the idea. So it's Elon that made them go with the torque system. The sources also mention "other sensors". I wonder if the Tesla engineers wanted additional cameras, lidar or additional radar and Elon said "no" because he thought the AP2 sensors were good enough for FSD.

Personally, I think Elon's reason is BS because there are plenty of cars with very effective camera based driver monitoring systems. Supercruise uses a very effective IR camera to track the driver attention. It sounds like he just did not like it and wanted the torque system instead.

I also get the impression that Elon probably thought that FSD would happen sooner than it has so his strategy was to use the torque system for a short period of time and then when FSD was finished, a camera system would become irrelevant. At this point, the strategy is probably to accept the downsides of the torque system and just press on to finish FSD as soon as possible.



The camera does not record anything. So I really don't think there is any "big brother" concern. It simply analyzes your face and if it sees your eyes are off the road for more than x seconds or if it detects signs of drowsiness or tiredness, it emits a visual or auditory warning or vibrates the seat to alert you. And in a more extreme case, if it detects that you've passed out or otherwise incapacitated, the car could automatically pull over safely and put the hazards on.
I would be interested in testing it, because eye strain is a particular issue for me. Before I got my MS the driving force (no pun) behind the purchase was safety - I have issues with eye strain and night vision, and with age (I am 63) it has gotten to where I cannot safely complete more than a six hour drive without a significant break. The MS with FSD improved my ability to where I can easily and safely drive 12 hours or more with zero eye strain or driving fatigue. This has been the case since I got the car in 6/2019 and it keeps getting better, especially with some of the recent lane change improvements. Highway driving has always been my metric for evaluating FSD, and I am happy with what I have to that end.
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
7,192
8,215
Terre Haute, IN USA
I would be interested in testing it, because eye strain is a particular issue for me. Before I got my MS the driving force (no pun) behind the purchase was safety - I have issues with eye strain and night vision, and with age (I am 63) it has gotten to where I cannot safely complete more than a six hour drive without a significant break. The MS with FSD improved my ability to where I can easily and safely drive 12 hours or more with zero eye strain or driving fatigue. This has been the case since I got the car in 6/2019 and it keeps getting better, especially with some of the recent lane change improvements. Highway driving has always been my metric for evaluating FSD, and I am happy with what I have to that end.

Thanks. That helps me understand where you are coming from. I don't think your eye strain would be a problem. A driver facing camera would not cause eye strain. AP/FSD would be exactly the same in terms of its driving so it would still be great to help you drive 12 hours or more with no issues. The only difference is how you tell the car that you are paying attention. You would not need to tug the wheel or rest one hand on the wheel like now. Instead, the car would just know that you are paying attention because a tiny IR camera behind the steering wheel would see where your eyes are looking. You could rest your hands on your knees and keep your eyes on the road, and the car would drive you on the highway.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
11,640
15,699
NC
Now if only Lexus made any at-all interesting cars to pair this with

My 2008 IS350 was a pretty nice sport sedan for the time.... the 2020 version is significantly more expensive and largely inferior to it :(




BTW- the interior camera in the model 3 can't be used for driver attention monitoring- it's in the completely wrong location and the wrong type of camera setup.

Those using cameras for this have em mounted on the wheel/steering shaft, looking directly at the driver, and they're both a much better camera and they have IR light projection so the camera can see in low light.... Tesla has one meh-resolution pure video cam in the wrong place so it can see interior passengers for robo-taxi insurance purposes.
 

alsetym

Member
Apr 28, 2018
258
278
hamilton
I think hands on is probably ok for well established tech that has lots of real world testing...AP is not that system. It is changing so rapidly it fails in new and unpredictable ways such that I think hands on wheel gives you an irreplaceable haptic feedback to tell you something is up.

I vote hands on wheel for this stage in development.
 
B

banned-66611

Guest
I wonder if this is related to Nissan's hands-free tech that was released last year. It's only available in Japan for now and uses HD maps.
 

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