LFP Battery Pack for Old Model S Cars

[krishna3812]

Do we know if Tesla is working on LFP battery packs for Old Model S?

Given they are able to fit that pack in Model 3 and get range around 270, i hope tesla also offers this pack for Old Model S where they can get similar range or >250 miles given Model S can get larger Pack compared to Model 3.

 

[Tam]

Do we know if Tesla is working on LFP battery packs for Old Model S?

Given they are able to fit that pack in Model 3 and get range around 270, i hope tesla also offers this pack for Old Model S where they can get similar range or >250 miles given Model S can get larger Pack compared to Model 3.

What's the rationale?

Usually, Tesla improves a spec for a used car if it benefits them monetarily, not because it benefits owners at the expense of profits.

 

[ucmndd]

There was a little bit of discussion in this thread, but I find the prospect to be highly unlikely. Legacy S/X are just that, legacy. Tesla has little incentive to invest in significant upgrades. I also think it's unlikely a LFP pack could provide suitable energy density / range.

Service says $22k for new battery on 2012 Model S

The maximum possible charge rate in KW is not dependent on having unlimited supercharging or paying for each charge. It only depends on the type of battery and the condition of the battery, And the port and wiring in the car.

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[ucmndd]

A LFP pack with the same cell count/configuration of the 85/90 pack would only be ~60kwh. That's about 200-210 miles of range on an older Model S. That's really not enough range/capacity to be worth the effort.

 

[krishna3812]

A LFP pack with the same cell count/configuration of the 85/90 pack would only be ~60kwh. That's about 200-210 miles of range on an older Model S. That's really not enough range/capacity to be worth the effort.

I think it would be right, LFP only costs about $65/kw(acoording to ARK Invest), and it can be charged and used until 100%(instead of 80-90% current pack). So a brand new pack that costs $10K(with tesla profits) is lot better than reman pack with used parts which is also giving same range(99% of times).

 

[Tam]

I think it would be right, LFP only costs about $65/kw(acoording to ARK Invest), and it can be charged and used until 100%(instead of 80-90% current pack). So a brand new pack that costs $10K(with tesla profits) is lot better than reman pack with used parts which is also giving same range(99% of times).

Yes, LFP is cheaper but designing a brand-new design/configuration for a used Model S would cost much more.

Then, as @ucmndd explained, LFP takes more space and more weight while yields less range, so to fit in the same space as the Model S has, which owners would want to buy a heavier battery, with less range and less performance?

 

[krishna3812]

Yes, LFP is cheaper but designing a brand-new design/configuration for a used Model S would cost much more.

Then, as @ucmndd explained, LFP takes more space and more weight while yields less range, so to fit in the same space as the Model S has, which owners would want to buy a heavier battery, with less range and less performance?

I guess we will only if they offer it. Currently Standard range Model 3 has HUGE demand which costs ~$45K. So i think people like me would like to buy that pack since i don't like storage and seating position of Model 3 and need Sedan. Model S fits that space and many Model S cars are being sold after 8years worried about cost of New Pack.

If there is LFP pack as an option i would think there would be huge demand for these old cars as well..

 

[ninefiveone]

Think you should do the math on your “huge demand.”

Start with # of old Model S’s that would opt for a new pack like this. Don’t say “many.” Actually do the numbers.

Then think about the cost of designing an entirely new pack, account for different cooling and on-board charging equipment, and cost of swapping out the pack.

 

[krishna3812]

Think you should do the math on your “huge demand.”

Start with # of old Model S’s that would opt for a new pack like this. Don’t say “many.” Actually do the numbers.

Then think about the cost of designing an entirely new pack, account for different cooling and on-board charging equipment, and cost of swapping out the pack.

I agree with you on design for cooling and charging equipment. But there is also this.

Forget Tesla for a min and think about some x company is selling their most expensive product with less options than least expensive product.

I think Tesla will not stop producing Model S cars for next foreseeable future. So all of these future customers and existing would benefit if they put some effort into this.

 

[ucmndd]

Tesla cares very minimally about retrofitting old cars. Their business model is built around you buying a new one.

Cases where they do offer retrofits are at minimum mutually beneficial for the company and the owner (see: infotainment upgrade).

I see no issue with Tesla not offering in a flagship product with what the market generally views as a cost-conscious and less desirable technology. Particularly as an after the fact retrofit. It just isn’t gonna happen.

 

[ninefiveone]

I agree with you on design for cooling and charging equipment. But there is also this.

Forget Tesla for a min and think about some x company is selling their most expensive product with less options than least expensive product.

I think Tesla will not stop producing Model S cars for next foreseeable future. So all of these future customers and existing would benefit if they put some effort into this.

So you want Tesla to offer their lowest end battery on their highest end car because “options?”

With all due respect, now you’re just making up reasons to fulfill wishful thinking.

Moving on…

 

[cwerdna]

I think it would be right, LFP only costs about $65/kw(acoording to ARK Invest), and it can be charged and used until 100%(instead of 80-90% current pack)

Battery capacity and energy are measured in kWh, not "kw".

 

[cduzz]

Tesla cares very minimally about retrofitting old cars. Their business model is built around you buying a new one.

Cases where they do offer retrofits are at minimum mutually beneficial for the company and the owner (see: infotainment upgrade).

I see no issue with Tesla not offering in a flagship product with what the market generally views as a cost-conscious and less desirable technology. Particularly as an after the fact retrofit. It just isn’t gonna happen.

I don't know if tesla's decided what to do with old cars. They certainly seem to support their roadsters better than, say, VW or audi support their older cars.

Why would tesla switch to LFP for replacement S battery packs? They're battery constrained. A cell that's going into a pack either helps sell a new plaid *or* keeps a crappy 2014 S on the road. Which makes more profit? The Plaid. Why keep the nasty old timers on the road? Marketing.

It's a valid thing for a company to say "go pound sand we're not selling you a part for your car you should throw it out and buy a new one." Someone somewhere has to make the decision of "do we support our older cars because it makes us look good?" (Mercedes and Porsche believe that to be the case).

A strong business case can be made for designing an LFP for the big and small block Ss / Xs can be made. They'll keep the cars on the road, keep the owners who want to keep their car happy, and making a supply of these won't eat into your NMC supply. How much is a project to build a pair of batteries to supply all the small and large packs? Dunno, but it probably won't break the bank.

Lastly, if they wanted to do this, they'd probably just farm the whole task (except firmware) out to BYD. Remember -- the whole point of the S program was to do engineering validation on your customer's dime. Discovering a battery flaw in an enormous program like the 3/Y project would be a company-threatening event while making those same discoveries (battery catches fire? throttle it; degrades excessively? Call it the 90 and move on!) on a program the size of the S project, both with smaller volumes and larger margins, is just good business. Vetting a vendor who wants to sell you new packs by having them make a retrofit LFP pack for legacy S/X cars is just a good vendor hazing project.

So -- I'd hope that tesla has a project to make $5000 / 8000 LFP packs (for 60/70/75 vs 85/90/100) for retrofitting expired S/X packs. Realistically speaking, I'd say there's a 10-30% chance that such a thing will actually be done.

 

[ucmndd]

Like I said above, a replacement 90kwh pack with LFP cells is only ~60kwh with current chemistry/density. I think you're greatly overestimating the market for such a pack.

 

[cduzz]

Like I said above, a replacement 90kwh pack with LFP cells is only ~60kwh with current chemistry/density. I think you're greatly overestimating the market for such a pack.

Well, a "90" pack after 8 years is a 70, and filling to 80% and running down to 15% habitually gives you a real size of 55.... While with LFP you can fill to 100% without concern.

The MIC 3 apparently has a battery of roughly 55kwh so probably you could stuff 60-70 into an S form-factor, where a huge factor would be if the car has steel or air springs.

And who knows if there are better efficiencies to be found in the LFP

 

[Nujec]

I don't know if tesla's decided what to do with old cars. They certainly seem to support their roadsters better than, say, VW or audi support their older cars.

Why would tesla switch to LFP for replacement S battery packs? They're battery constrained. A cell that's going into a pack either helps sell a new plaid *or* keeps a crappy 2014 S on the road. Which makes more profit? The Plaid. Why keep the nasty old timers on the road? Marketing.

It's a valid thing for a company to say "go pound sand we're not selling you a part for your car you should throw it out and buy a new one." Someone somewhere has to make the decision of "do we support our older cars because it makes us look good?" (Mercedes and Porsche believe that to be the case).

A strong business case can be made for designing an LFP for the big and small block Ss / Xs can be made. They'll keep the cars on the road, keep the owners who want to keep their car happy, and making a supply of these won't eat into your NMC supply. How much is a project to build a pair of batteries to supply all the small and large packs? Dunno, but it probably won't break the bank.

Lastly, if they wanted to do this, they'd probably just farm the whole task (except firmware) out to BYD. Remember -- the whole point of the S program was to do engineering validation on your customer's dime. Discovering a battery flaw in an enormous program like the 3/Y project would be a company-threatening event while making those same discoveries (battery catches fire? throttle it; degrades excessively? Call it the 90 and move on!) on a program the size of the S project, both with smaller volumes and larger margins, is just good business. Vetting a vendor who wants to sell you new packs by having them make a retrofit LFP pack for legacy S/X cars is just a good vendor hazing project.

So -- I'd hope that tesla has a project to make $5000 / 8000 LFP packs (for 60/70/75 vs 85/90/100) for retrofitting expired S/X packs. Realistically speaking, I'd say there's a 10-30% chance that such a thing will actually be done.

Good analysis. I suspect that it's entirely possible that we'll see lower cost battery replacements and upgrades in a mature EV market but right now the market is booming and supply constrained and a long way from mature. Also the market is only gradually adjusting to the cost of out of warranty battery replacements as the warranties are so long. I'd love to see this happen but I'd be surprised if it happens within 10years.

 

[cousin_IT]

Tesla cares very minimally about retrofitting old cars. Their business model is built around you buying a new one.

Cases where they do offer retrofits are at minimum mutually beneficial for the company and the owner (see: infotainment upgrade).

I beg to differ. Retrofitting MCU2 in older cars has proven to be a challenge: It's labour-intensive (> 4 hrs install time), prone to errors (migration of data, software deployment, SIM swaps etc) and the pay-off is very small, if any (in my case the modem was faulty and my MCY was taken out 2 times). I would not be surprised if they would be making a loss given all the engineering efforts that went into making this work for every config. That being said, I'm very happy I got the opportunity and for € 1.550 I got an up to date infotainment system and LTE connectivity and I hope to drive this car for a long time.

Their mission is to EV the world. For their business model it (currently) doesn't matter if YOU buy a new one or someone else does.

 

[ucmndd]

I beg to differ. Retrofitting MCU2 in older cars has proven to be a challenge: It's labour-intensive (> 4 hrs install time), prone to errors (migration of data, software deployment, SIM swaps etc) and the pay-off is very small, if any (in my case the modem was faulty and my MCY was taken out 2 times). I would not be surprised if they would be making a loss given all the engineering efforts that went into making this work for every config. That being said, I'm very happy I got the opportunity and for € 1.550 I got an up to date infotainment system and LTE connectivity and I hope to drive this car for a long time.

As I said, the MCU upgrade is certainly mutually beneficial to both the customer and Tesla, which IMO is why they're willing to endure the trouble. They aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.

• Every voluntary upgrade is one less eMMC chip recall they have to do on their own dime
• Every voluntary upgrade is potentially one less MCU they're going to have to replace on their dime to support FSD
• Tesla is clearly interested in deprecating the MCU1 fleet as soon as possible to simplify support and software development moving forward

In any case, this sort of retrofit is a fundamentally different proposition than designing wholly new parts and major vehicle assemblies to update old cars and keep them on the road. The juice isn't worth the squeeze to a company whose business model is selling new cars.

 

[tga]

Tesla is clearly interested in deprecating the MCU1 fleet as soon as possible to simplify support and software development moving forward

I think the already have, essentially. My MCU1/AP1 car never got a 2021 release. I got 2020.48.37 at the beginning of Feb 2021. I got 2020.48.37.x releases in late Feb, May, July, and Oct; currently on 2020.48.37.8.

Not that that's a bad thing - I have no bugs that need fixing (that impact me anyway), so new releases are just extraneous crap, UI changes, pointless games, or new bugs.

 

[brico84]

I personally would have zero interest in this for my S75. It would reduce my 0 to 60 time to an unacceptable level. Even IF it did increase my range I wouldn't want that trade-off, and I certaintly wou;dn't pay for it.

Good thing I still got 3 years of warranty on my battery anyway.