LG Chem 120kWh battery packs for sale to manufacturers "looking to exceed MS range"

[EVNow]

Couple of things to note.

This is not a press release by LG. This is someone talking to the LG folks at a EV conference and reporting. They didn't ask a lot of important questions.

But, no manufacturer gives out cost figures. A lot of them don't give density figures either. This doesn't make them "vaporware" - just difficult to figure out the implications.

- - - Updated - - -

They have signed deals with GM, Ford, Renault, Nissan, Volkswagen, Volvo, Hyundai-Kia, Daimler Mercedes, and Volvo for cells.

Nissan hasn't signed anything with LG, AFAIK. There were rumors that they may - but we didn't hear about anything after that. This makes it clear to me - Nissan decided to continue to use in-house batteries, not LG's.

 

[dpeilow]

This was the Nissan story http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/15/us-renault-sa-nissan-batteries-exclusive-idUSKBN0HA0CA20140915

 

[EVNow]

This was the Nissan story http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/15/us-renault-sa-nissan-batteries-exclusive-idUSKBN0HA0CA20140915

Yes, this is the one which speculated (some leaks) saying Nissan will relook at the procurement next month. But the "next month" came and went with no news. Infact you can't find any news item about what happened in the review. I'm sure we'd have heard something if LG actually got the deal.

update : As you can imagine, this was big news at MNL. I tried to keep track of it, but it went quiet after Sept.

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - News About Nissan Battery Future

 

[dpeilow]

On the other hand it would be politically sensitive. That battery plant in the UK was set up with a lot of public support. I presume the same is true of the one in the US. It wouldn't have gone down well here - probably would have had to repay some of the subsidy.

 

[TEG]

In other recent LG battery news:
LG Chem Adds Chinese Great Wall Motors Plug-In Hybrids To Its Battery Clients

 

[EVNow]

On the other hand it would be politically sensitive. That battery plant in the UK was set up with a lot of public support. I presume the same is true of the one in the US. It wouldn't have gone down well here - probably would have had to repay some of the subsidy.

Without going too OT ... here is one take on the news.

Scrap Nissan's Leaf battery plant? Hardly

Essentially, Nissan can use LG technology and make batteries in their existing assembly lines.

Regardless of who sells Nissan and Renault their future “battery technology,” finished EV battery modules will still have to be manufactured. Nissan decreed five years ago that its EV batteries must be made at the same assembly location as the vehicles they will power, for cost, logistics and quality control reasons. In this case, the electric Nissan Leaf is also assembled in Smyrna, a short stroll from the battery line.

 

[RobStark]

Sure, Bentley could offer an armored carrier. Oh, they'll sell a ton of them. Unfortunately, a "ton" is only a third of a car.

Dumb.

If it is a boutique brand building a few dozen BEVs with 120 kWh packs my bet would be on Andy Palmer's Aston Martin.

 

[Mookuh]

Not sure why people are so negative about a bigger battery? Building a battery of this size that can be fit into an automobile is an impressive feat of engineering.
Also, people seem to jump on the "Yeah, you got a battery. Woohoo. Go build a car, then we'll talk!" - this is a battery manufacturer speaking, signaling that they're ready to supply large batteries to carmakers who want to take that task up. I truely don't get the negativity. Does LG have a history of making bad batteries? They struck me as generally knowing what they're doing.
Of course, a lot of details are missing, but as EVNow pointed out, it was not a press release. I'm kinda excited to see that the bar is being pushed further up.

Oh, and not everyone, not even at Tesla, agrees with the "We don't need more range than a MS 85" stance. See Roadster 3.0 announcement.

 

[WarpedOne]

Not sure why people are so negative about a bigger battery?

Simple. Many here and me included are fed up with lip service and vague promises of great things in the future. STFU and just do it already.

We understand that "120kWh battery" doesn't mean anything. Tesla in 2012 already had a 255kWh battery.
It was just a bit to heavy and a little to big to put into a family car so they used just one third of it. See the problem?

 

[RobStark]

Tesla 500 kWh battery packs for sale today.

 

[yobigd20]

Tesla 500 kWh battery packs for sale today.

Garbage and Mack trucks....that would sure put a major dent in our oil dependency if they switched.

 

[WarpedOne]

Garbage and Mack trucks....that would sure put a major dent in our oil dependency if they switched.

You know that it is not that simple. Even garbage truck may need more than 500kWh per day.
Hmm.... 20kW average power for continuous 24 hour operation, stop&go, regeneration... Huston, we have another use for PowerPack!

I'm still thinking this packs are a godsend to DIY world. 100kWh of big format LiFePO4 cells costs over $40k. And then add interconnects and management, another $20k.
PowerPack comes with liquid cooling and interconnects and management already installed. For how much? $25k? Loose the external housing, repack and off you drive.

 

[wws]

Tesla 500 kWh battery packs for sale today.

Seems strange to have the word "Tesla" on something that is inherently DC... (The cars are a different matter since they use AC motors. Though I guess one could argue that since the inverters convert the DC to AC, the system is still worthy of the name.)

 

[EVNow]

Here is an Autoline interview where LG Chem's Prabhakar Patil discusses with a notable panel the future of batteries:
The Charge of the Battery Brigade - Autoline This Week 1833 - YouTube

In this - Patil talks about 40% improvement in density at half the price compared to '11 Volt.

So, in terms of price - it will be about $250/kWh (Patil had talked about $500/kWh for '11 Volt years back). Add 30% for packaging cost - it is $350/kWh. 120kWh battery would be a cool $42k. May be this is what the newly announced 300 mile Audi SUV BEV will have.

GM Bolt would need a battery costing nearly $20k assuming 55kWh. I'm sure GM can build rest of the sonic sized car for $17k, as they were saying - base Sonic costs $15k.

Volt '11 had 150wh/kg. If we assume 40% improvement, we get about 210 wh/kg - close to the 220wh/kg, you are assuming.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Seems strange to have the word "Tesla" on something that is inherently DC... (The cars are a different matter since they use AC motors. Though I guess one could argue that since the inverters convert the DC to AC, the system is still worthy of the name.)

Beyond the AC induction motor for which he is most famous, Nikola Tesla invented many other things including what we know today as the induction DC-to-DC converter. Similar DC-to-DC converters play an essential role in Powerwalls and Powerpacks when fed from solar panels.

For instance, see Tesla's 1888 patent for a METHOD OF CONVERTING AND DISTRIBUTING ELECTRIC GURRENTS

This invention relates to those systems of electrical distribution in which a current from a single source of supply in a main or transmitting circuit is caused to induce, by means of suitable induct-ion apparatus, a current or currents in an independent working circuit or circuits.

The main objects of the invention are the same as have been heretofore obtained by the use of these. systerns-viz., to divide the current from a single source, whereby a number of lamps, motors, or other translating devices may be independently controlled and operated by the same source of current, and in some cases to reduce a current of high potential in the main circuit to one of greater quantity and lower potential in the independent consumption or working circuit or circuits.

Prior to Tesla's experimentation with induction coils, voltage conversion was done through mechanical means.

Tesla also patented the AC-to-DC converter, which is necessary to get any power into those Powerpacks from the grid. See his 1889 patent for Method of obtaining direct from alternating currents

I'd say the only thing in there Tesla didn't invent is the battery itself.