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Lies about Electric Cars

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by vfx, Mar 26, 2010.

  1. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  2. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    Well actually the Melbourne guy was pretty decent it was just that the guy from Sydney that obviously didn't have a clue. I really can't see why Australia shouldn't be the perfect country for solar and offshore wind as they have a lot of both sun and coastline :)
    He was following the classical idea of disregarding a disruptive technology, this is how it's been the last 50 years so that's how it will be the next 50 years... All the way until the gasoline prices skyrockets.

    Cobos
     
  3. ChargeIt!

    ChargeIt! Member

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    Doesn't make me squirm at all. Whenever this comes up in conversation (often right after I say "no tailpipe, no pollution") and the objection with the long-tailpipe is made, my response runs something like this ...

    "True ... there is still some pollution. But wouldn't you rather have a national policy determine how clean our electricity generation is ? [pause] Or wouldn't you rather determine for yourself how clean your electric car can be, by installing solar ? [pause] If the long-tail-pipe pollution is of concern to you, GET INVOLVED in changing it. [pause] The energy needed and expended to create a gallon of gasoline from oil is just as dirty -- or could be just as clean -- as the 6kWh created and then used by a Tesla Roadster to cover the same distance the gas car runs while burning that fossil fuel."
     
  4. Tdave

    Tdave Member

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    This is the key argument for me. The CO2 quoted for ICE cars is just for the emissions out the tailpipe, not including the energy consumed to refine that gallon. It's not an apples to applies comparison when CO2 out the tailpipe is compared to the CO2 long-tailpipe argument.
     
  5. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  6. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  7. ChargeIt!

    ChargeIt! Member

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    Tool for what ? BigOil ? :rolleyes:
     
  8. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #12 stopcrazypp, Mar 29, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
    I found the source press release:
    Electric Cars a Major Environmental Threat - Media Release - The Dog & Lemon Guide

    Here's the whole report (all 167 pages, a 2.1MB PDF file):
    http://dogandlemon.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/the-emperors-new-car.pdf

    First, I suppose it is important to mention that they are arguing for public transport rather than cars, but besides from that there is no redeeming quality about this report.

    Initially when I heard this, I though they played fair and used the window sticker consumption for the Tesla (30 something kWh /100 mi) and maybe they chose countries with near 100% old style coal plants, but now seeing the report, the numbers are useless (the relevant part is starting at page 158: "Electric cars in the real world").

    I see how they claim that the Elise is cleaner than the Roadster in 5 countries (Australia, China, New Zealand, UK, US).

    What they did was boost the Elise EPA number by using Consumer Reports test results. Then they brought down the Tesla number by using range numbers (notice this is not efficiency: there's a distinction) from various tests by the media as well as anecdotal accounts.

    They even link to our forum here!:
    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/tesla-roadster/2919-real-miles-drive.html

    Basically they have these range estimations for the Tesla:
    Avg: 142.5 miles
    High: 200 miles
    Low: 85 miles

    This neglects the range/standard/performance mode difference, plus charge level/battery deterioration variation with each car, not to mention the widely different driving conditions of each car. They use the range numbers plus 75kWh as the electricity used (using an old estimate of electricity required factoring in charging losses from the Tesla blog:
    Tesla Motors - Engineering)

    Also they got a "vehicle scientist" Chris Coxon, a physicist John Storey, and a honorary associate Professor Gary Bold to sign off on this so it sounds like "experts" agree with this.

    I can see how this report can fool people, the first part is very rigorous.

    But I don't know how any scientist can sign off to a report based on numbers from completely different driving conditions. Anyone who has ever done a scientific report should know about controlling variables and you see a distinct lack of that in this report (plus they are plain wrong in using range as a substitution for efficiency without knowing the actual electricity consumed at the outlet for each of the different range numbers).

    I hope Tesla comes out and debunks this because is not only a misguided attack on EVs, but also a direct attack on the Tesla Roadster. Maybe another whitepaper is necessary to finally put this argument to rest. (As for me, I'm hoping they clear up whether the kWh/100 mi EPA sticker numbers include charging losses or not). Maybe owners can write to Tesla and see if they can do something (assuming this story gains traction).
     
  9. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Tesla is planning stores down under. This "report" is trying to subvert that.
     
  10. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    Has someone nice sent a nice little tip off to Konrad about this thread yet?

    Cobos
     
  11. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Of course :wink:
     
  12. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  13. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Disappointing to have something like that come out of Scientific American. Fortunately their readership is more sophisticated than this particular author.
     
  14. EVNow

    EVNow Active Member

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    I think a lot of reporters have just woken upto the fact that electric cars use electricity and the generation of it can produce emissions. Ofcourse they want to write about this great discovery. They are still a few steps away from being able to see the full picture.
     
  15. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

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    This one is more about perception... http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/accesshollywood/101008/entertainment/update__anderson_cooper__shocked__by_use_of__gay__in_new_movie_trailer__studio_pulling_trailer

    "Multiple reports have identified the movie trailer in question as the trailer for Vince's new movie, "The Dilemma." In the trailer for "The Dilemma," the phrase "that's so gay" is not used, but Vince's character is seen in the middle of a business presentation saying, "Ladies and gentlemen, electric cars are gay. I mean not homosexual gay, but you know, my-parents-are-chaperoning-the-dance gay."

    Vince, a couple of pointers if I may...

    #1. Go test drive a Roadster.

    #2. Get some perspective.

    #3. Grow a pair...don't just parrot what some mal-informed, blithering idiot playwright scribbles down on a napkin.

    #4. Get some talent...your career is stinkin like an 80's turbo-diesel.


    (Sorry for the rant)
     

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