thefortunes
Active Member
Chicago isn't exactly a "camping" destination
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In fact, it's very difficult to find anywhere to camp in the Chicago area. I had looked at one point when I was considering a cross-country trip with our Airstream. I found a few references to dry camping in parking lots, but nothing formalized. It's a city, after all.Chicago isn't exactly a "camping" destination
Garlan Garner
Banned
That must be it.Chicago isn't exactly a "camping" destination
I would think I would see campers passing through though. Maybe not...I am in no way a camper...sooooo........
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
I live in an area where tourism is the leading industry, so trailers (and motorhomes) are a very common sight along the roads. But even over in Denver, a metropolitan area on the plains, travel trailers are common since visiting the nearby mountains is part of the lifestyle.
To me a trailer is too much hassle and expense to maintain. So I do a lot of tent camping when I want to get out and about — I've been using the same tent since 1975. But I do envy those with trailers, with the extra amenities and protection from the weather that they provide.
If I were to get a Model 3 I'd want the trailer hitch for a hitch mount bike rack since the car is too small to accommodate my mountain bike (unlike the Model S).
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"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (W. Shakespeare)
Not exactly the meaning intended by the author, but I think the point is made.
This thread is about lightweight trailers that a Model 3 might be able to tow. Can we stay focused on that? Thanks.
Interesting thread. How about some thoughts on the T@B 320S behind a model 3 ?
T@B 320 S Floor Plan - nuCamp RV | T@B Teardrop Camper
Frontal area (78x89) looks similar to the Alto R-1723 mentioned above with 1848 total weight.
My guess is that range would be the biggest issue if the max battery size is 75. (guessing here). What would be your WAG on range ?
T@B 320 S Floor Plan - nuCamp RV | T@B Teardrop Camper
Frontal area (78x89) looks similar to the Alto R-1723 mentioned above with 1848 total weight.
My guess is that range would be the biggest issue if the max battery size is 75. (guessing here). What would be your WAG on range ?
Yes, range will be a major issue with that T@B, as I believe it will be with the Alto. The T@B is a similar shape and has about the same frontal area but is about two feet shorter, so the roof slopes down even more severely after the peak. Which I think will increase aerodynamic drag due to air flow separation as it leaves the roof peak and then interacts with air coming off the upper edge of the side walls, producing twin vortices of turbulence. Drag can be reduced by lengthening the trailer and sloping the roofline more gradually.
We know from Model X towing reports that range is reduced by about 50% when towing an Alto R1723, an Airstream Sport 22FB, and a Bowlus Road Chief. The Road Chief seems to use the least energy during towing. In theory that is because of the rounded front end (in both dimensions), the radiused roof edges and the long tapered rear. The Alto R1723 seems to use the most energy when towing of those trailers even though it is the lightest by far (I have no EV energy usage data for the fixed roof Alto F1743 model, which is what I have on order). It's all about the shape of the trailer, and much less to do with the weight of the trailer.
So let's hypothesize that a Model 3 with a 75kWh battery will have an EPA range of about 300 miles. Because it has less frontal area than a Model X and therefore will push less air out of the way of the trailer, I think it likely that the range decrease while towing will be significantly more than 50% of the EPA range. How much more, I can't say. I need data. Disclaimer: I have no professional expertise in aerodynamics. I am relying on what I have read and by the very helpful posts made by @Zoomit and @ohmman in other threads on TMC about towing.
At this point I have decided to purchase a Model X 100D (EPA 295) for my tow vehicle. I believe the range hit on the Model 3 will be proportionately more since it is pushing far less air out of the way of the trailer compared to a Model X. The X achieves its range rating while pushing more air out of the way than a 3. That means less air directly impacting the trailer when towing with an X, so the same trailer will produce less drag when being towed by an X compared to being towed by a 3.
I won't be buying an X until late this year because I won't be getting my Alto trailer until spring 2018. I am hoping that in the latter half of 2017 some of the early Model 3 owners will try towing camper trailers and report their energy usage.
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Agreed. The problem is the trailer manufacturers live in the ICE age, where trailer owners aren't terribly concerned about their gas mileage. They know it takes a big hit while towing, but they accept it and just fill their tanks more often.
If gas in the US was priced like gas in Europe, there would be more concern about towing energy efficiency.
omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
It's going to be hard on range regardless of battery size. If a T@B takes GMC Sierra from ~17mpg to ~13mpg (link below), it'll absolutely destroy the range of a Model 3 at highway speeds.
Question for Tab owners - Vehicle and towing MPG
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but basically that is just a tent on wheels with a hard floor and roof. No kitchen or bathroom. It's innovative for sure and the impact on EV range would likely be minimal.
Thanks for posting that link. Reading through the MPG reports on that page I see people reporting anywhere from 20% to almost 50% decreases in MPG while towing. I find the 20% reports questionable: I think the person towing isn't measuring their mileage very accurately, the real figure is likely higher (worse MPG). I have read similar reports in the Altoiste FB group (Safari Condo Alto owners) about MPG decreasing by at least one-third.
So ICE owners towing just have to make more stops to fill their tanks, which takes less than 5 minutes per stop. BEV owners also have to make more stops but it can take 45 minutes at a Supercharger to go from a very low state of charge to over 90% (if you get an unpaired stall and the charger is working properly). And of course Superchargers are not yet everywhere.
We know that Tesla is planning on significantly increasing the maximum charge rate in the future, per Elon's tweet earlier this year. We don't know specifically how Tesla will accomplish that (and I'm sure that the existing fleet won't be able to charge faster) but if the Supercharger time could even be cut in half for new Teslas that would be fantastic.
Wow, the losses pulling a T@B trailer are more than I expected.
GMC Terrain: 30 down to 15.6 mpg, 48% loss (+1037 Wh/mi)
2013 Subaru Outback: 29 down to 17 mpg, 41% loss (+820 Wh/mi)
2012 Ford Escape: 26 down to 14 mpg, 46% loss (+1111 Wh/mi)
2013 Nissan Murano: 25 down to 15.5 mpg, 38% loss (+826 Wh/mi)
2011 Jeep Wrangler: 18 down to 14 mpg, 22% loss (+535 Wh/mi)
GMC Sierra: 17.4 down to 12.9 mpg, 26% loss (+676 Wh/mi)
2008 Ford Explorer: 16 down to 10 mpg, 38% loss (+1264 Wh/mi)
It's that optical trick, making us believe teardrops are actually more aerodynamic. Too bad we can't see airflow. We'd probably make vastly different design and purchase decisions.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
I have this one for my Toyota FJ. MORV Explore | Manley ORV Company
Not sure this work do well on my Model S
Not sure this work do well on my Model S
If teardrop trailer designers would actually test their designs in real wind tunnels, I think they would be shocked. Because based on real world data, a Bowlus Road Chief requires significantly less energy to tow than a Safari Condo R1723
Alto trailer is 83" high by 83" wide, length 168", dry weight 1,592 lbs
Bowlus Road Chief trailer is 93" high by 80" wide, length 285", dry weight 2,300 lbs
Tesla Model X tow test achieves 70% of EPA range with trailer [Video]
Quote: "The company achieved about 70% of the Model X P90D 250-mile EPA-rated range while towing the trailer at a moderate highway cruising speed of 50 to 55 mph."
In contrast, Model X owner @fortytwo reports a 50% or more range decrease when towing his Alto R1723.
Below is a photo of @jackbowers towing his Bowlus Road Chief.
Alto trailer is 83" high by 83" wide, length 168", dry weight 1,592 lbs
Bowlus Road Chief trailer is 93" high by 80" wide, length 285", dry weight 2,300 lbs
Tesla Model X tow test achieves 70% of EPA range with trailer [Video]
Quote: "The company achieved about 70% of the Model X P90D 250-mile EPA-rated range while towing the trailer at a moderate highway cruising speed of 50 to 55 mph."
In contrast, Model X owner @fortytwo reports a 50% or more range decrease when towing his Alto R1723.
Below is a photo of @jackbowers towing his Bowlus Road Chief.
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