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lightweight wheels model 3 performance 0-60 testing

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I will say that my instinct would have been that @gearchruncher was right and the vehicle is always at it's amp limit. But I'm perfectly willing to concede that's wrong and the governing is more complex than I'd have expected since @Sam1 and others have tested while holding as much constant as they could. I'm not going on a buying spree for rotational mass reductions, but I can load a few hundred pounds of wife and children in the car for the communal scientific good :) I've actually just been eyeing the dragy for years.

Edit - sorry I didn't go back and re-read the thread. I may be misattributing things @dfwatt said to @gearchruncher. Whoever said it, my guess would have been the motors/inverters/etc are always operating at a defined peak and that weight reductions would make a difference like any other car, but those with actual data seem to say otherwise, so any interesting situation.
There are a lot of variables impacting just how much power the motors put out. Let me just outline the several that I know about:

1) your trim level and obviously whether you have dual or single Motors. This is obviously software limited in that the folks with the ghost module have shown that you can take any dual motor car as long as it has a certain type of rear motor and remove the software inverter limit and get the thing to accelerate like a performance model. But it's telling they haven't been able to find any extra power and those guys know their stuff so there is no extra power at least in a safe sense past what the inverters are set at for the performance models.

2) your charge level. This again is obvious but people don't seem to understand that this actually has a big impact on acceleration particularly past about 30 miles an hour. No one's been able to demonstrate that there's any difference however between 90 and 95% or between 90 and 100%.

3) your battery temperature. This is not so obvious and there's no way to index it because without special software that can read info off the can bus there's no way to know what your battery temperature is. But the batteries put out more power when they're warmer and the difference can be significant in terms of several percentage points. This is basic chemistry. Cold batteries conversely don't put out as much power. This I believe explains much of the fictional notion that putting extra weight in the car after an acceleration run doesn't seem to change the acceleration times. The batteries might be warmer and therefore the car is putting out slightly more power and that might compensate for your extra weight.

4) your traction control and vehicle stability system. These have a big impact and even in track mode they're never completely turned off. There's a lot of speculation but not a whole lot of data about whether launch torque is limited or whether in fact the motors are incapable of breaking tires loose on a dry clean surface , which would require about ~1.2 G's of launch force, slightly less in the front and slightly more in the rear due to weight transfer. I suspect that it's the latter (the motors are unable to generate that much torque ) combined with #5, which is probably the least appreciated factor of all.

5) low RPM torque limitations that maybe software or may be firmware instantiated that prevent torque ripple in permanent magnet switched reluctance type motors which is the type of motor in the rear of the car. Induction motors do not have 'torque ripple' and therefore they would not be subject to software throttling in order to prevent it.

There's nothing like the blogosphere to bring out unlimited speculation and then the dissemination of whatever disinformation rumors rise to the top of those speculation bubbles. The problem is no one has ever presented a single shred of data showing that adding or subtracting 100-200-400 lb to the car results in the same acceleration when you account for battery state of charge, battery temperature, and the other variables. There are on the other hand a ton of YouTube videos showing that simply going from very heavy stock wheels to lightweight forged wheels dropping roughly eight to 10 lb a corner shaves at least a tenth of a second off the car's acceleration 0 to 60. This is consistent with the evidence that reciprocating mass is about 4 times more critical in terms of its impact on acceleration then overall vehicle mass.

There is not a single shred of believable data supporting the fiction that the car has its power adjusted according to some g meter that allows the acceleration to remain constant across a bunch of different vehicle weights. When you ask people what their data is, they simply make a claim they can't provide any data because they don't have any. I challenge people like gearcruncher who disagrees with Newtonian mechanics to go run his own dragy test with a car unloaded and then putting 200 pounds of sand bags in the trunk or in the front seat and then retiming the zero to 60 run. I've already done these tests and for every hundred pounds I add I lose about a tenth 0 to 60. I challenge him to produce his own data. Unless he's going to lie he's simply can't produce data that supports this claim.

In science it's data that supports claims . . . . not more claims. Show me the data. This is pure fiction and pure b*******. We already have plenty of evidence that disinformation floats to the top of the blogosphere and gets disseminated as though it's fact. This is just the latest example. Fortunately this kind of disinformation isn't costing people their lives because they're refusing shots that might save their lives because they believe that those shots will cause their sex organs to drop off or that involve lizard DNA or microchips. So it's just b******* but not lethal b*******. I guess that's some kind of progress!
 
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Wow that's awesome, you know specifically down to the tenth of a point of what it takes for any model 3 to break the tires loose on dry pavement.

Have you applied to NASA or SpaceX? They'd love to have someone with those capabilities onboard, as it would save them tens of millions of dollars per year by not needing to validate any equipment.
 
Wow that's awesome, you know specifically down to the tenth of a point of what it takes for any model 3 to break the tires loose on dry pavement.

Do you have data showing he's wrong?


Have you applied to NASA or SpaceX? They'd love to have someone with those capabilities onboard, as it would save them tens of millions of dollars per year by not needing to validate any equipment.

If you think "understands how a draggy works" is something SpaceX would be impressed by... yikes.
 
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Check out dragtimes slips, the top 40 model 3's are all within 0.09 seconds of each other on their 60 foot times. No matter the amount of mods. And I know one of those cars is completely gutted, without a single piece of trim even left on the inside.

You know why on a dragstrip that cars 400 pounds lighter and tons of unsprung weight removed, with extremely sticky tires still turn an identical 60 foot? Because the car is software limited. That's not one or two cars, that is a group of the fastest 40 different cars in various configurations, with traction removed as a variable, turning identical times.

And this is why I ignore one-off stories of why these parts made peoples' cars 1/10 faster on a 0-60 time, even ignoring the multiple hundreds of runs that I've personally done. Oh, and the fastest 0-60 I ever recorded was on the street, not the track, with the OEM 19" wheels and all season tires, not my sticky PS4S or light wheels, by 0.01 second.

But I'm not one to let pesky facts get in the way of someone's opinion, so feel free to get your car, and spends $8000 on parts to find out for yourself.
Ummm... Not my opinion. It's physics. Even 1g lighter with same power, will be faster.

You don't seem to understand experimental controls and limits of measurement accuracy well.
 
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There is not a single shred of believable data supporting the fiction that the car has its power adjusted according to some g meter that allows the acceleration to remain constant across a bunch of different vehicle weights. When you ask people what their data is, they simply make a claim they can't provide any data because they don't have any. I challenge people like gearcruncher who disagrees with Newtonian mechanics to go run his own dragy test with a car unloaded and then putting 200 pounds of sand bags in the trunk or in the front seat and then retiming the zero to 60 run. I've already done these tests and for every hundred pounds I add I lose about a tenth 0 to 60. I challenge him to produce his own data. Unless he's going to lie he's simply can't produce data that supports this claim.

This is a frustrating thread to read. The only person in this thread (@Sam1 ), who has spent the money and has significant real world experience in testing various setups, and showing no change in 0-60 times... is being trash talked. I don't get it?

Can someone address why all of the top times for a performance model 3 are in such a tight pattern of times, regardless of wheel setup or removing interior? That literally defies logic and no other vehicle operates that way...

Or backup that sam1 is full of sh*t and do the your sandbag test and post the times on here.


I'm really interested in the outcome, but can't sift through the trolling type name calling and responses.
 
This is a frustrating thread to read. The only person in this thread (@Sam1 ), who has spent the money and has significant real world experience in testing various setups, and showing no change in 0-60 times... is being trash talked. I don't get it?

Can someone address why all of the top times for a performance model 3 are in such a tight pattern of times, regardless of wheel setup or removing interior? That literally defies logic and no other vehicle operates that way...

Or backup that sam1 is full of sh*t and do the your sandbag test and post the times on here.


I'm really interested in the outcome, but can't sift through the trolling type name calling and responses.
Changing to lightweight forged Wheels changes your 0 to 60 time somewhere in the ballpark of 0.1 to 0.15 seconds and if you were to take the maximum outlier case if you went to the lightest possible 18 inch wheel set up from the heaviest performance OEM set up, you might pick up .2 seconds. That's well within the variation of power fluctuations associated with battery temperatures, outdoor temperatures, and the difference between 70 and 90% charge. You're suggesting that that lack of variation larger than would be predicted from the modest reduction in rotating mass is proof that there's some hidden g meter throttling the power in model 3s? And while we're at it I also have done draggy testing and my results are very different from Sam's. As I've said and I'm happy to post those images - every time you add a hundred pounds you lose about a tenth of a second. That means a 25lb reduction in rotating mass is worth about one-tenth of a second. And then they're all the YouTube channels that show exactly what has been described here when you upgrade to lighter Wheels. So all of those data points are junk?
 
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The car is so *dramatically* slower that there isn’t even a point in running Draggy.
dfwatt says the car is 0.2 seconds slower with 200 lbs in it.
You have a hell of a butt meter to be able to detect that as "dramatic."

But of course it isn't a tenth per 100, it's less than that. The car is 4200+ lbs with a normal driver in it. If every 100 lbs took off a tenth, we'd be at 0 seconds 0-60 when we were at 1,000 lbs.
 
This is a frustrating thread to read. The only person in this thread (@Sam1 ), who has spent the money and has significant real world experience in testing various setups, and showing no change in 0-60 times... is being trash talked. I don't get it?

Can you cite where he has posted any of his alleged "real world testing" data in this thread?

(spoiler: no, you can't, because he's posted none. He keeps CLAIMING everyone else is wrong because of data he's never actually shown and we've no idea if even exists, let alone supports his conclusions from it)


Instead he's cited a clumping of OTHER peoples data-- which we don't really have enough details of to determine how clumped they really are (the data is often missing things like driver weight, temp of battery, specific wheel weights, etc to be able to directly compare each different cars results), and are all 2nd hand reports.


I'm not sure "He looks at dragtimes for 2 minutes and thought he saw a pattern" counts as "spent money and significant real world" anything to get there.


See also dfwatts recent post cited below to gearcruncher where he discusses some of it- and how others with actual directly measured results disagree with what Sam1 appears to be concluding just from results-not-his-own.



dfwatt says the car is 0.2 seconds slower with 200 lbs in it.
You have a hell of a butt meter to be able to detect that as "dramatic."

I mean- he specifically cited measured data from Draggy--- but make up whatever you want I guess :)

Changing to lightweight forged Wheels changes your 0 to 60 time somewhere in the ballpark of 0.1 to 0.15 seconds and if you were to take the maximum outlier case if you went to the lightest possible 18 inch wheel set up from the heaviest performance OEM set up, you might pick up .2 seconds. That's well within the variation of power fluctuations associated with battery temperatures, outdoor temperatures, and the difference between 70 and 90% charge. You're suggesting that that lack of variation larger than would be predicted from the modest reduction in rotating mass is proof that there's some hidden g meter throttling the power in model 3s? And while we're at it I also have done draggy testing and my results are very different from Sam's. As I've said and I'm happy to post those images - every time you add a hundred pounds you lose about a tenth of a second. That means a 25lb reduction in rotating mass is worth about one-tenth of a second. And then they're all the YouTube channels that show exactly what has been described here when you upgrade to lighter Wheels. So all of those data points are junk?
 
This is a frustrating thread to read. The only person in this thread (@Sam1 ), who has spent the money and has significant real world experience in testing various setups, and showing no change in 0-60 times... is being trash talked. I don't get it?

Can someone address why all of the top times for a performance model 3 are in such a tight pattern of times, regardless of wheel setup or removing interior? That literally defies logic and no other vehicle operates that way...

Or backup that sam1 is full of sh*t and do the your sandbag test and post the times on here.


I'm really interested in the outcome, but can't sift through the trolling type name calling and responses.

“One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions.”

– Wernher von Braun
 
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From having now read hundreds of posts, including many by @Sam1, I'm inclined to believe him when he says he didn't get much/any improvement in acceleration from reducing mass, unsprung mass, and polar moment of inertia. While those of us with engineering degrees might find this quizzical, those of us with software backgrounds will immediately see it's quite simple to intentionally limit the car (if they wanted to, which arguably they might).

So the original question remains, does anybody have any solid evidence that they've been able to shave any time of their acceleration times? I understand how it'd be theoretically possible, but I'd love to see some numbers. @Sam1 at least offered some anecdotal evidence. Is there anything to the contrary out there, beyond the hypothetical?
 
Changing to lightweight forged Wheels changes your 0 to 60 time somewhere in the ballpark of 0.1 to 0.15 seconds and if you were to take the maximum outlier case if you went to the lightest possible 18 inch wheel set up from the heaviest performance OEM set up, you might pick up .2 seconds. .... And while we're at it I also have done draggy testing and my results are very different from Sam's. As I've said and I'm happy to post those images - every time you add a hundred pounds you lose about a tenth of a second. That means a 25lb reduction in rotating mass is worth about one-tenth of a second. And then they're all the YouTube channels that show exactly what has been described here when you upgrade to lighter Wheels. So all of those data points are junk?
I'd like to see some Dragy screenshots showing specific improvements based on swapping out those big heavy Uberturbines for some forged 19" wheels and AS tires, since that's specifically what I'm considering, and I'm trying to decide whether to spend $2200, $2900, or $4400 on wheels--so far, it sounds like they'd all have similar and infinitesimal benefits in acceleration, but may improve handling characteristics, damage resistance, and subjective appearance.
 
From having now read hundreds of posts, including many by @Sam1, I'm inclined to believe him when he says he didn't get much/any improvement in acceleration from reducing mass, unsprung mass, and polar moment of inertia. While those of us with engineering degrees might find this quizzical, those of us with software backgrounds will immediately see it's quite simple to intentionally limit the car (if they wanted to, which arguably they might).

So the original question remains, does anybody have any solid evidence that they've been able to shave any time of their acceleration times? I understand how it'd be theoretically possible, but I'd love to see some numbers. @Sam1 at least offered some anecdotal evidence. Is there anything to the contrary out there, beyond the hypothetical?



Again I'm baffled that folks accept what Sam says as true- despite him providing zero of his own data he claims he has... while ignoring the many others who say their own (including measured) experiences disagree with his.

dfwatt, less than 10 posts ago, for example stated:

I also have done draggy testing and my results are very different from Sam's. As I've said and I'm happy to post those images - every time you add a hundred pounds you lose about a tenth of a second


(that said- please DO post those images with specific spec details- perhaps posting some direct measured evidence will prompt Sam to finally post his own (if he actually has any))
 
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Again I'm baffled that folks accept what Sam says as true- despite him providing zero of his own data he claims he has... while ignoring the many others who say their own (including measured) experiences disagree with his.

dfwatt, less than 10 posts ago, for example stated:




(that said- please DO post those images with specific spec details- perhaps posting some direct measured evidence will prompt Sam to finally post his own (if he actually has any))
Absent further evidence, I'm inclined to believe @Sam1 because his conclusion runs counter to his interests. He spent money in pursuit of better acceleration, and says he didn't get it. Why would he lie to say he wasted his money? On the contrary, many folks spend lots of money and then argue it was worth it, which may be true, or may be placebo effect, or may be confirmation bias. If I spend the money, I certainly WANT the positive outcome.

That said, it sounds like there's a wide range (say ~0.2 sec) within which M3P 0-60 times fall due to normal variations in the myriad factors, and inside that wide range is the hopeful improvement from lighter wheels. If I were racing for pinks, that'd matter, but I'm just trying to get to work...
 
So the original question remains, does anybody have any solid evidence that they've been able to shave any time of their acceleration times? I understand how it'd be theoretically possible, but I'd love to see some numbers. @Sam1 at least offered some anecdotal evidence. Is there anything to the contrary out there, beyond the hypothetical?
I've posted my dragy slips previously, unfortunately some were lost when I didn't have them saved and I switched phones. But, it started back when I had the fastest 0-60 recorded time on OEM setup, then fastest time with lightweight rotors by 0.02. then I switched to the stickier tires and lightweight 18", and my time slowed down by 0.01, and then someone with the ghost mod on a long range beat my fastest 0-60, not by time, but by 1 or 2 feet shorter distance iirc.

Then I posted my 1/4 and 1/2 mile runs, both were essentially identical with any setup I used, except that the 1/2 with the 18" setup was 0.2-0.3 seconds faster, but with a lower trap speed (assuming because of aerodynamic and rolling resistance issues at high speeds compared to the OEM wheels/tires). 0.3 second variations on an 18 second measured event, is not significant at all, and can easily be chalked up to external variables.

I've posted a slew of data from personal testing, and haven't hid anything. It's funny when I said I was going to lighten everything up to get more speed, people told me on the forum that it wouldn't help, I found out they were correct. And now people are trying to tell me the exact opposite of both what some informed me of, and my own data (not estimates, theory, or feeling) shows.
 
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I've posted my dragy slips previously

Not in this thread.

If they're elsewhere, surely you can find, and link to, your own posts.


, unfortunately some were lost when I didn't have them saved and I switched phones.


Riiiight.


Then I posted my 1/4 and 1/2 mile runs, both were essentially identical with any setup I used, except that the 1/2 with the 18" setup was 0.2-0.3 seconds faster

Not really helping your "no mods change your times" argument here my dude....


0.3 second variations on an 18 second measured event, is not significant at all, and can easily be chalked up to external variables.

Did you not record the relevant variables for each run?

If not, why would we expect your results to be useful? Why do YOU think they are?


I've posted a slew of data from personal testing.

Where?
 
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