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Lit Motors C-1

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I do think in city traffic that gyro's could be a more efficient regen mechanism (i.e. more usable energy recovered) than charging the battery, which could improve city mileage. However, when they state max range like "200 miles" it's usually steady state driving to eliminate any such losses anyway. I also vote that 200 miles won't turn out to be true for any reasonable sense (something like 200 miles driving at a constant 15mph on a perfectly level road).
 
The question is how much more efficient, if at all? The gyros are not in the wheels, so the regen has to go through the motor, to the inverter, to something that transfers the energy, at a loss, to the flywheel, then take that energy back out, at a loss, transfer it back through the inverter to the motor, at a better efficiency than the same transfer through the battery pack. Plus, it's still a minimal amount of energy. Do some regular stop and go driving at city speeds on a regular motorcycle and see how much the brakes warm up. Not much energy there to recover.
 
We have reservation #292 for a C-1 (for my wife), and I really hope they're right about the range! It does seem to defy the laws of physics, but the CdA of the C-1 appears to be far better than a standard motorcycle, so perhaps it really can work. While the gyros are clearly the "secret sauce" for the ride dynamics, it's hard to believe that they are able to double the range compared to other bikes. Reducing the CdA, though, could do that.
 
@Robert

I guess that CdA stands for Coefficient of Drag or something like that. In Italy we call it Cx. I think that a better CdA could improve of a small percentage (5 to 10%) the range but couldn't double it (100% improvment).
I think that the key to understand how the C1 can get such a high range is in the regen mechanism mentioned on the Litmotors site where it is stated that "energy is kinetically stored in the gyro flywheels".
 
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The mfr implies that the flywheel is not fixed to the frame (as I thought) but gimballed somehow which would allow some degree of controlled lean into curves. The beauty of a bicycle is how magically it transitions from straight ahead into doing curves: rake, trail, and center of gravity- all working together seamlessly. These guys certainly have their work cut out for them.

Not sure that sending cash deposits their way is indicated at this time. :wink:
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I like a challenge, so I'll keep trying. Answer this, where does the energy come from that is stored in the gyro flywheels?

IMO when Litmotors says that energy is stored in the gyro flywheels gives only a rough description of what really happens. Of course energy can be stored only in the batteries and not in the gyro flywheels that are used to convert the mechanical energy into electrical energy.
Then I also would like to point out that on the Facebook Litmotors site they told that a very low amount of energy is needed to make the gyro flywheels work. Only at the start up some energy is given to the gyroscopes to activate them and then very little energy is needed to make them work.
This means that when the brakes are activated almost all the energy coming from the brakes is used to store energy in the battery, realizing in this way a very efficient mechanical to electrical energy conversion.
But IMO, and I already know that you disagree with me on this point, the movement of the gyro flywheels in itself is always used to convert energy from mechanical to electrical. In fact if the giro flywheels work to convert the mechanical energy coming from the brakes by using their movements the same gyro flywheels do the same job also when the brakes are not activated but with a smaller intensity of course.
 
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It's not just that I disagree with you, the universe disagrees with you. Regen works because deceleration is putting energy back into the system, either by charging batteries or by spinning flywheels faster. If you aren't braking and generating energy from regen then there is no extra energy being put back into the system, so if you take any energy from the flywheels they will slow down, which means you then need to use stored energy from the pack to spin the flywheel back up to speed, or eventually the flywheels will stop spinning, and the bike will fall over when you stop.
 
I guess that CdA stands for Coefficient of Drag or something like that. In Italy we call it Cx. I think that a better CdA could improve of a small percentage (5 to 10%) the range but couldn't double it (100% improvment).

Yes, CdA ~= Cx. I actually think it could double the range. Coming from the bicycle world, there is an enormous difference between a road bike and a recumbent with fairings. The C1 seems to me to be more like a recumbent with fairings than a motorcycle. There are lots of drag creating parts in a motorcycle.
 
From the marketing I have seen so far, the gyroscope is there mainly as a stability system. It's not really there to increase the efficiency in any appreciable way (except for regen).

The other electric motorcycles indicate 8kWh gives about 100 miles of EPA range on the motorcycle city cycle, although they are not enclosed (so aerodynamics are much worse).

The Lit Motors FAQ claim:
Because of the C-1′s small size, we only need an 8 kWh battery pack, which is supplemented with our patented KERS regen braking system, giving another virtual kWh.
http://litmotors.com/faq/

Nowhere are they making the claim the gyro is providing anything other than regen capability.

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@Robert

I guess that CdA stands for Coefficient of Drag or something like that. In Italy we call it Cx. I think that a better CdA could improve of a small percentage (5 to 10%) the range but couldn't double it (100% improvment).
Definitely possible for doubling. The Aptera was tested to 206MPGe EPA before it closed its doors. That's twice the 99MPGe rating for the 2011 Leaf.
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Aptera-Closes-its-Doors-No-Three-Wheeled-Car-For-You
 
Yes, CdA ~= Cx. I actually think it could double the range. Coming from the bicycle world, there is an enormous difference between a road bike and a recumbent with fairings. The C1 seems to me to be more like a recumbent with fairings than a motorcycle. There are lots of drag creating parts in a motorcycle.
Jerry has an excellent point here. Faired recumbents have hit and maintained 83mph with about 400-500W input power. There is a lot of drag in a typical motorcycle.
 
It's not just that I disagree with you, the universe disagrees with you. Regen works because deceleration is putting energy back into the system, either by charging batteries or by spinning flywheels faster. If you aren't braking and generating energy from regen then there is no extra energy being put back into the system, so if you take any energy from the flywheels they will slow down, which means you then need to use stored energy from the pack to spin the flywheel back up to speed, or eventually the flywheels will stop spinning, and the bike will fall over when you stop.

IMO the gyro flywheels slow down because of the drag and not because of the mechanical to electrical conversion.
 
IMO the gyro flywheels slow down because of the drag and not because of the mechanical to electrical conversion.

Sorry, but that can't happen. If you take energy out of something, that something has less energy. There's no free lunch here. Yes, drag will slow down the gyroscopes, but in a sealed container drag should be extremely low. Getting electrical energy out will slow the gyroscopes down by a greater rate than the electricity produced. This happens because changing energy from one form to another always produces heat as a byproduct.
 
Excuse me Jerry. But from the point of view of the balance of energies and the respect of the principle of conservation of the energy you have the gyro flywheels rotating, and for this reason having a good kinetical energy that we would like to exploit, then we have the mechanical loss that the gyro wheels experience because of the drag. Why should the gyro flywheels slow down because of the mechanical to electrical conversion? In fact the principle of conservation of the energy is respected. You have kinetical energy converted in electrical energy with the losses due to the drag experienced by the gyro flywheels and the resistance of the wires (Joule effect).

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I would like to add that the losses due to the drag experienced by the gyro flywheels would have occurred anyway also in absence of mechanical to electric conversion while the heat generated by the wires because of the Joule effect is certainly small when compared to the energy that you can get with such mechanical to electrical conversion, making it very convenient for EVs.
 
Raffy.Roma;434714Why should the gyro flywheels slow down because of the mechanical to electrical conversion?[/QUOTE said:
1. Energy conversion always has losses. There is no 100% efficient conversion of energy from one form to another that I am aware of.

2. You can't take energy out of one system, put it in another, and still end up with the same energy in the original system. (This is my understanding of what you are saying.) If you could, that would increase the amount of energy. e.g. If the gyroscope has 1000 J of kinetic energy, and 500 J is converted to electricity, the gyroscope will have less than 500 J remaining.