I'd be happy with 300 miles of driving in the heat with AC on at 75 mph so that may be what they would call a 500 mile pack. That would get me most everywhere I would need to go. Others might need more. I agree though if the Supercharger network is built out, it makes a huge battery pack less of an issue.
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Long Range: 500 Mile Pack versus Supercharger
- Thread starter daniel
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Three problems:
1. A five-minute charge does not exist today. It's a dream. A 500-mile pack is a simple matter of spending more money on batteries and giving up some interior space. So we're talking existing technology vs. futuristic concept.
2. It will be decades before a super-charger network is extensive enough to cover all likely driving routes, as the network of gas stations does today. You can say "a charger at every gas station" but it will be a LONG time before that happens. All well and good to dream about and plan for the future, but I'll be too old to drive before there's a bank of chargers at every gas station.
3. At the presently available charging speeds, a line-up at the charger will move MUCH slower than the line at the gas pumps. A 500-mile car is more independent. A 300-mile car is more dependent on finding a charger that's working and available. A 100-mile car is so much more dependent that only the most dedicated soul will attempt a road trip in it. Even the 90 kW (?) of the super chargers is slow enough that having to wait for one or two cars ahead of you will put a real crimp in any driving plans.
But when I said I'd seriously consider a 500-mile Model S, it was a knee-jerk reaction. I don't think I would, really. The Prius is much more convenient for road trips for me at present, and probably will be, at my location, for as long as I'm able to drive. And the Roadster is much more fun as my daily driver.
I feel like you missed my point. It's a graph with a point at which charge times are acceptable vs. cost/time. I didn't actually say a 5 minute charge time was required, simply one that's "small compared to total trip time".
You don't need charging stations everywhere like you do gas stations. The vast, vast bulk of charging would be at home. It's only people taking road trips that would need super charging, which is an incredibly tiny percentage of total drivers at any one time. You need a much smaller infrastructure, relative to the quantity of gas stations, to serve that tiny long-distance need.
Now, if you live in the boonies (I think Spokane qualifies :biggrin
then it may take quite a while for infrastructure to support you and I see the 500 mile need. I'm sort of repeating myself, but my thought is that I doubt there's enough demand today to justify Tesla doing it and it's a market demand that'll only decrease as charging infrastructure spreads and charging times decrease.
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Norbert
TSLA will win
I feel like you missed my point. It's a graph with a point at which charge times are acceptable vs. cost/time. I didn't actually say a 5 minute charge time was required, simply one that's "small compared to total trip time".
You don't need charging stations everywhere like you do gas stations. The vast, vast bulk of charging would be at home. It's only people taking road trips that would need super charging, which is an incredibly tiny percentage of total drivers at any one time. You need a much smaller infrastructure, relative to the quantity of gas stations, to serve that tiny long-distance need.
Now, if you live in the boonies (I think Spokane qualifies :biggrin
I doubt that would be the case out of the USA. In the UK garages aren't used for cars anymore, they are used to store all the crap you seem to keep over decades. I'm not sure about the rest of Europe but I'm not so sure people do still use their garages for their cars.
Big assumption that the vast majority of charging would be at home. I want to buy the Bluestar when it comes out, but currently, I'd have to move house to be able to charge at home, which is a big decision to make just to buy a car.
But for me 500 mile would be best, people can easily travel that amount going to the coast in the UK or visiting friends and family who have moved away. London to Manchester and back is 400 miles; London to Cornwall and back is 514 miles. Although this isn't going to be a regular route I know a number of people who would travel this 3-4 times a year, so currently, they cannot use a Tesla to do so.
Edinburgh to London and back is about 800 miles; Edinburgh to Goodwood and back is over 900 miles. Done both in a Roadster, several times. So "can't" is a really strong word!
That's using 17kW charging en-route at the UK Tesla HPC network. A little frustrating waiting 3 hours plus to charge - after 1.5 or 2 hours I want to go! With a UK Tesla Supercharger network in place it would be damn easy - wait 30-45 minutes? Easy. Probably haven't finished my lunch yet!
Add 3kW (13A socket) or 7kW (32A) at overnight stops (home, friends, relatives, Zero:Net hotels and B&Bs) and I really find it hard to say "can't".
That's using 17kW charging en-route at the UK Tesla HPC network. A little frustrating waiting 3 hours plus to charge - after 1.5 or 2 hours I want to go! With a UK Tesla Supercharger network in place it would be damn easy - wait 30-45 minutes? Easy. Probably haven't finished my lunch yet!
Add 3kW (13A socket) or 7kW (32A) at overnight stops (home, friends, relatives, Zero:Net hotels and B&Bs) and I really find it hard to say "can't".
I do the London to Cornwall (Penzance area) trip on a regular basis with a single stop for lunch in Taunton while the car charges on the HPC. It's 285 miles each way but I'm not sure why you think it cannot be done. It's actually getting easier every day as more open charging is installed... the vast majority of these locations have 32A or better Charging Stations available;
Kevin Sharpe said:
Fair enough, when I say can't, I really meant "can't be bothered". No-one with their wife and 2 kids in the car is going to want to keep stopping when driving to Cornwall on a bank holiday weekend and stuck in traffic.
If you are on your own on a mission to go somewhere, you'll stop and wait for it to charge. I won't. I regularly go up to Stoke (from London) and if I had Tesla I wouldn't want to drive there, get half way back and have to charge for 30 minutes before continuing my journey. I also go to away football matches which can range quite a distance, again, I wouldn't want to stop for an hour.
Now I love Tesla cars but there are huge assumptions in these posts; home charging, people willing to top up on a journey and wait an hour to do so. People won't do this now, just look at service stations, its all quickly have a rest, toilet, fast food and get back out on the road. People don't want to sit and wait for their car to charge. A 500 mile range reduces this for those longer journeys. A fast charger won't.
Here at least pretty much everyone has a garage, and uses it for their car. But even if we assume the worst case, where people have to park in the street, most charging will still occur here. It would mean that one would have to install charging posts along the streets at a cost of maybe $2500 per post.
With a charging post where ever it is you park, you wouldn't have to move.
I would much rather have 90 kW Supercharger access than 500 mile range. Simply because those few times I need to travel more than 300 miles, not even 500 miles is sufficent, and I'll have to charge somewhere anyway. 15 Superchargers is all that's needed to cover all of Norway, which is a completely trivial investment, relative to the thousands of cars Tesla will sell here.
Not in a singe day, but it's easier to install 15 Superchargers than a bunch of 10 kW charging points at every hotel. (A 240V/16A charging point just wouldn't cut it.) If I were to go sightseeing in Northern Norway, I would easily cover 2500 miles in 1-2 weeks.
Easier and better aren't the same things though.
Yes, it would be easier to install 15 SCs rather than 1000 smaller charges, but the latter would be more useful to the majority of people. People do not make huge journeys (over 500) in a single day. A 500 mile range would stop people needing to stop and charge, and can charge overnight. It would also make it a lot more difficult for me to plan my journey if I have to work out where to stop. Currently if I am driving, I get below 1/4 of a tank, I know I can get to the next services and top up. With only 15 super chargers in the country, if I get below 1/4 of my charge I don't know if I will make it to a charger.
One stop per day of 45 minutes wouldn't bother me at all. I would make that stop whether there is a charger there or not. And lets not forget a 500 mile pack would be a lot more expensive than a 300 mile pack. Probably to the tune of $20,000.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be more than 15 Superchargers. 30 would probably be better, because then you can get between them even if you are carrying five occupants and luggage, the A/C is blasting, the battery is 8 years old, etc. 30 Superchargers would probably still be cheaper than maybe 500 10 kW chargers, though. If we assume $5,000 per 10 kW charger, each supercharger would need to cost over $83,000, and they are unlikely to cost that much.
All in all, the way I view it:
Complete Supercharger Grid:
- Cheaper charging infrastructure
- Cheaper battery
- Trivially inconvenient
500 mile battery + sufficent 10 kW chargers:
- More expensive charging infrastructure
- More expensive battery
- Heavier, less efficient car
- Less luggage space
- Trivially inconvenient
On the London to Cornwall trip it is difficult to cover 50 miles per hour on average during peak travel times such as a bank holiday weekend. Most people that I know are ready for a stop after 3 hours driving (150 miles) in the UK, especially when traveling with the wife and 2 kids. With next gen cars such as the Model S a 30 minute top up on a Supercharger or even 30kW 3 phase AC would add considerable range while having a short break.
You are really missing the point here... you will be able to charge while parked in almost every location imaginable... so when for example you are in Stoke or watching football the car will be on charge. This is something that I do on a regular basis.
I think you are stuck with an old world view... people who drive EV today do change their behaviour because of the enormous benefits that brings. Cars and charging are improving everyday and this just gets easier and easier... you really need to drive an EV to understand.
But which is better for the consumer? 15, 30, even 100 super chargers would not be enough for a whole country. I am not thinking just Tesla here, there is the Leaf and other EVs coming out, there will need to be a LOT of super chargers to make it viable.
You say you don't mind waiting 45 minutes, which is fine. But if at your stop there are already people using the super charger? You would need to wait for them to finish, and if there's a queue, you'd be waiting even longer.
Superchargers ARE inconvinient. If you were the only one in the country to have an EV, then yes it would be awesome, but that's not the case now, and even less so in the future. People drive for convinience, the less timse you have to stop, the more convinient it is. The more places you can charge, the more convinient it is.
If thing's weren't more convinient using a car, we'd all be using public transport :wink:
I don't need to drive an EV to understand how they work. You are stuck in the EV world and seem to have forgotten what the normal consumer wants.
Yes I want to be able to charge whilst I am at a football match, but unless we have THOUSANDs of superchargers across the country, it isn't viable! If we took 90% of the petrol stations, but made topping up instant, do you really think it would help??
As for the Cornwall stuff, I disagree, if people all stopped there wouldn't be any traffic. Yes, SOME people stop. But the majority don't, they keep going until they get to their destination, kids sleep in the car and the wife reads a book (or nowadays the kids watch the iPad whilst the wife has a go at you for choosing the wrong way to get to Cornwall :wink
In the UK we are seeing the complete opposite... while Zero:Net is growing exponentially encouraging hotels to pay to install 7kW Charging Stations across the UK, Nissan are struggling to give away 50kW DC fast chargers.
Exactly my point!!!!
Which is more convinient? The smaller, but more of them, chargers.
By all means, if you change those 7kw chargers with higher ones, the hotels won't complain. But the larger ones you have, the less you can have. The less convinient it is for consumers.
No, you are mixing up the points... I was commenting on the reality of having Charging Stations installed (which is something that ZCW does) not how convenient they are for the end user.
Think of Superchargers as petrol pumps... they are almost as quick to refuel the vehicle but have the added benefit of dispensing very low cost fuel... something people will be very happy to use even if it takes them a few minutes more. Superchargers make perfect sense wherever petrol stations are today.
Medium power AC charging (<=43kW) can be installed everywhere that you stop because it's low cost. This means that you get significant range extension when watching football for example (even at 32A single phase I can add 100 miles range to my Roadster if I'm parked for 4 hours). The great thing about this is that it happens when you are doing something else... you don't even need to go anywhere different, just plug in when parked.
Yes, correct, but you'd have to have them just as often as the point below you made.
THAT I like, but that's not what this thread is about, this is about Large Super Powered ones vs. Range. If I could have Range and Massive amounts of Medium Charges that would be perfect. But if I had the choice of Superchargers vs. Range, Range would be chosen any day.
The reason I don't like super chargers is because there won't be enough of them. I want what's convinient for me, not for every EV out there (as any consumer would!). Superchargers are a great idea if they pop up like petrol stations, but they won't, so for me, range is what is best.
If the thread said that we could have supercharges in the same quantity as petrol stations vs. range, I would of course pick the former. But we are talking of only a handfull of superchargers (which may or may not be useful depending where I travel) vs. range that could directly help me wherever I go.
I think the biggest problem thus far with DC chargers is that there are too many competing standards. This scares off some businesses who decide to wait and see which standard prevails. This is unfortunate, but it will be sorted out in the end.
But DC chargers have some traction here. Thus far there are about 20 CHAdeMO chargers, basically all of them set up in 2011/2012. If Tesla decided to set up 5 Tesla superchargers per year here, I'd be more than happy. 5 strategically placed Superchargers would be enough to cover something like 90% of my Supercharging needs. The remaining 10% would need closer to 15 Superchargers, which would enable me to go anywhere in the country with ease.
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