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Once Tesla hits 1m there really won't be much need to stop at 5m. To me it seems that Tesla has fundamentally thought about redesign of an EV as showed by the Model S. Now it seems the Model 3 is the first car designed to have substantial automation through final production.

I'm betting that the Model Y will be even faster, easier & cheaper to produce than the Model 3. At this point (maybe even earlier with Model 3) the Tesla model of single computing platform + car designed for high-speed automated manufacturing will be substantially cheaper (and provide more free cash flow) than traditional automaker. That is a massive competitive advantage.

Given Elon's goal of transitioning the world to renewable technology why would Tesla stop at 5m and trust VW & GM to carry the torch?
 
Once Tesla hits 1m there really won't be much need to stop at 5m. To me it seems that Tesla has fundamentally thought about redesign of an EV as showed by the Model S. Now it seems the Model 3 is the first car designed to have substantial automation through final production.

I'm betting that the Model Y will be even faster, easier & cheaper to produce than the Model 3. At this point (maybe even earlier with Model 3) the Tesla model of single computing platform + car designed for high-speed automated manufacturing will be substantially cheaper (and provide more free cash flow) than traditional automaker. That is a massive competitive advantage.

Given Elon's goal of transitioning the world to renewable technology why would Tesla stop at 5m and trust VW & GM to carry the torch?

I agree, this was stated many times by Elon during several CC, Tesla’s long term competitive advantage will be manufacturing. Since legacy automobile companies haven’t changed their manufacturing processes much since the last 100 years, they likely won’t be able to steer their ship as fast as they would like once EVs become mainstream. Many shorts think that manufacturing EVs will be easy, sure they’ll learn, but can match Tesla’s speed? The race to manufacture M/Y will be interesting. Once Tesla reaches 5k/ week, they’ll prove themselves capable of reaching 10-20k in due time.
 
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Gigafactory is designed to be a product, one CAD design, easy to duplicate.
The next Gigafactory will have battery and car production under one roof.
Tesla plans to have a minimum of 12 Gigafactories, I assume #3~#12 are full size.
Elon plans to increase car production speed to one car every few seconds - meaning 3+ million cars from each line per year.

I don't see any flaw in Elon's plan. Nothing against physics.
With 10 factories, that's 30 million cars a year.
I don't see why it will not be done. If your product is the best with lowest cost, you get the whole market. That's the path Tesla is taking.

While everyone is focused on Model 3 production ramp, Tesla is doing a lot of things behind the scene. Cost cutting while improving quality, lots of research in this area. This will lead to significent competitive advantage against the competitors. AI hardware. AI software. Automation. Battery research. I skipped Tesla Energy division. It will add another 30% to Tesla's value.

Elon sees a clear path how Tesla becomes a trillion dollar company. Tesla is on that path as planned. If you don't waste your hard earned money on leverage and short term speculations, just buy and hold, I think it's quite reasonable to expect 20~30 fold.
 
I don´t quite remember what thread I saw the Fremont expansion but I think it can fit here...

Does anyone know who owns this land just north of the Fremont factory?:

Seems like a dead obvious expansion area for Tesla, whether its for lots to store in-transit vehicles and in the future more buildings.

upload_2018-4-13_9-0-54.png
 
automobile companies haven’t changed their manufacturing processes much since the last 100 years

This reads like extreme hubris. Tesla may be aiming for better—we shall see—but modern manufacturing is 100 years of improvements better than 100 years ago :) Ever heard of robots? JIT? Do you agree the quality of cars now is dramatically better than that of MY 1920?

These guys might be sleeping on their ICE dependence, but don't conflate that with wringing $/speed/bugs out of the manufacturing process.
 
This reads like extreme hubris. Tesla may be aiming for better—we shall see—but modern manufacturing is 100 years of improvements better than 100 years ago :) Ever heard of robots? JIT? Do you agree the quality of cars now is dramatically better than that of MY 1920?

These guys might be sleeping on their ICE dependence, but don't conflate that with wringing $/speed/bugs out of the manufacturing process.

Don’t take it literally. What I am trying to convey here is that despite cars having been better now than the 1920s, they haven’t really changed much, it’s an ICE car with ICE parts. As a matter of fact cars today are more complex than ever, which is why Tesla is trying to simplify its cars in order to streamline production. The hubris is in how simple the Model 3 is put together, we’ll see it in their gross margins and their ramp will eventually eclipse any other car on the market.
 
Don’t take it literally. What I am trying to convey here is that despite cars having been better now than the 1920s, they haven’t really changed much, it’s an ICE car with ICE parts. As a matter of fact cars today are more complex than ever, which is why Tesla is trying to simplify its cars in order to streamline production. The hubris is in how simple the Model 3 is put together, we’ll see it in their gross margins and their ramp will eventually eclipse any other car on the market.

Battery technology hasn't been ready for a long time. I'm pretty sure that even without Tesla electric cars would have evolved. But maybe 10 years later. Do you have any details about the simplicity other than Elon said it's designed for manufacturing and has fewer parts? In his most recent interview he said they built too much technology into it. Would love to get more details on what's going on in fremont and reno anyway. Has anybody good sources?
 
Battery technology hasn't been ready for a long time. I'm pretty sure that even without Tesla electric cars would have evolved. But maybe 10 years later. Do you have any details about the simplicity other than Elon said it's designed for manufacturing and has fewer parts? In his most recent interview he said they built too much technology into it. Would love to get more details on what's going on in fremont and reno anyway. Has anybody good sources?
I don't know if there is any hard data, but there are some rumors

Tesla Model 3 impresses German automaker after being reverse-engineered
 
Gigafactory is designed to be a product, one CAD design, easy to duplicate.
The next Gigafactory will have battery and car production under one roof.
Tesla plans to have a minimum of 12 Gigafactories, I assume #3~#12 are full size.
Elon plans to increase car production speed to one car every few seconds - meaning 3+ million cars from each line per year.

I don't see any flaw in Elon's plan. Nothing against physics.
With 10 factories, that's 30 million cars a year.
I don't see why it will not be done. If your product is the best with lowest cost, you get the whole market. That's the path Tesla is taking.

While everyone is focused on Model 3 production ramp, Tesla is doing a lot of things behind the scene. Cost cutting while improving quality, lots of research in this area. This will lead to significent competitive advantage against the competitors. AI hardware. AI software. Automation. Battery research. I skipped Tesla Energy division. It will add another 30% to Tesla's value.

Elon sees a clear path how Tesla becomes a trillion dollar company. Tesla is on that path as planned. If you don't waste your hard earned money on leverage and short term speculations, just buy and hold, I think it's quite reasonable to expect 20~30 fold.
Sorry to disagree but I think unbridled optimism is as dangerous as the bears. 10 gigafactories and 30 million cars???? They are having challenges getting their two factories to 600,000 in production. After 5 years they are maybe at the 200,000 car rate. And yes you need a battery plant to supply the car factory. I am bullish on Tesla and own two of their cars but let’s be realistic. Even at a million cars per year they will be a force to reckon with.
 
Sorry to disagree but I think unbridled optimism is as dangerous as the bears. 10 gigafactories and 30 million cars???? They are having challenges getting their two factories to 600,000 in production. After 5 years they are maybe at the 200,000 car rate. And yes you need a battery plant to supply the car factory. I am bullish on Tesla and own two of their cars but let’s be realistic. Even at a million cars per year they will be a force to reckon with.

My point is to show a clear path how Tesla could grow into a trillion dollar company. Of course nothing is 100% sure. I give it 95% chance, a sane people may give it one out of a million chance. That's fine. Competition is usually hard to predict. For ordinary companies you can use the past and today to estimate the future. For Tesla, don't do that extrapolation. Elon also mentioned this today.

In the past, Elon said he is 100% sure at some point they can increase the production line speed to a walking speed, (one car every few seconds). I know there is nothing at the fundamental level that can prevent Tesla from achieving that. Regarding to battery, Elon said the ideal situation is raw material in one side, the whole car comes out the other side. I bet that's what they will do a few years down the road. They will not settle with only one high speed Gigafactory like that.
 
I don´t quite remember what thread I saw the Fremont expansion but I think it can fit here...

Does anyone know who owns this land just north of the Fremont factory?:

Seems like a dead obvious expansion area for Tesla, whether its for lots to store in-transit vehicles and in the future more buildings.

View attachment 293887
Land is being developed by lennar property. Includes bits you didn’t circle.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bi.../31/lennar-warm-springs-bart-fremont.amp.html
 
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I said one of the biggest, not the biggest. Looking at the 2017 sales of light vehicles (non-commercial), Toyota sold 8.7 million cars which made them the top seller. VW was #2 around 7.6 million, Ford #3 at 7 million, GM #4 at 6.3 million, Nissan and Hyundai were #5 and #6 both around 5.5 million cars a year. Other totals include commercial vehicles which rearranges the mix a bit. In 2016 VA and Toyota were over 10 million total vehicles and GM was just shy of 10 million.

It's quite possible the car industry is looking at major disruption in the next decade. There is a video I've posted and some others have posted to of a lecture given about a year ago on how Tesla could massively disrupt the car industry. The speaker is not very animated and it's pretty dry, but I watched it a couple of times because it was very information dense.

I found the video:
Charged EVs | How the Tesla Model 3 could trigger the collapse of the traditional auto industry

I agree with most of the points Julian Cox makes. Tesla's don't need to be able to meet demand to disrupt the industry, the disruption will happen when there is an affordable new tech car out there that people really want.

Tesla probably won't be the top auto maker, but will be in the top 10, possibly the top 5.

Good points. I can't demo it, but what will be Tesla when it produces a really affordable car? A beetle killer Porsche should have invented, or will they call it popvagen?
 
Good points. I can't demo it, but what will be Tesla when it produces a really affordable car? A beetle killer Porsche should have invented, or will they call it popvagen?
FWIW, since Porsche invented the original VW there has been periodic serious innovation coming from those companies that evolved from the original Volkswagen. Tesla might never produce an ultra-cheap people's car. Several Chinese companies do that right now and are evolving rapidly. There is no need to have Tesla do that also.
 
Sorry to disagree but I think unbridled optimism is as dangerous as the bears. 10 gigafactories and 30 million cars???? They are having challenges getting their two factories to 600,000 in production. After 5 years they are maybe at the 200,000 car rate. And yes you need a battery plant to supply the car factory. I am bullish on Tesla and own two of their cars but let’s be realistic. Even at a million cars per year they will be a force to reckon with.

People have talked about the S curve in production. That happens in most scale ups because scaling is not linear. The initial climb getting into production and then increasing volume to a decent point is very difficult. The logistical hurdles are many and some are pretty big. Once all those hurdles are cleared, it's free running to ramp up production until the point of diminishing returns or market saturation occurs. Then the curve flattens out but the limits restricting further growth are different than initial production.

The established auto makers passed the S a long time ago. To a large extent they are currently limited by market for their brand. Nobody sells more than around 10 million vehicles a year because that is about where demand tops out for even the most popular brands. Toyota could probably scale up their manufacturing to 11 or 12 million a year without a lot of trouble, but the demand isn't there to soak up the extra vehicles and dealers would have to sell them off at a loss.

The car business today is very competitive with lots of options for consumers to choose from. There are probably more than one disrupter coming down the road. The coming mainstream of electric vehicles is probably the most certain. Tesla is poised to be in the best position when that happens. They only make electric cars, they have the best support network for them, and they are the only company at the moment close to the capacity to make 1+ million cars a year. They aren't there yet, but it's a matter of evolution of their existing resources.

Other car companies are spinning up to have the capability to make something other than ICE in large numbers. All the major European brands are making some serious noises about it and some are actually taking steps to make it happen. In the case of Europe, the governments are pushing hard to this technology. Established car companies all have internal headwinds to fight. There are EV advocates in each company, but there are skeptics too and the skeptics win at least half the strategic arguments. This is why companies like BMW have gone back and forth between announcing a fleet of pure EVs and going with PHEVs instead. The skeptics know electrification is inevitable, but they are advocating for hybrids that maintain their company's investment in ICE.

The skeptics also have some merit to their short term arguments. The battery supply to make large numbers of BEVs isn't there and while capacity is expanding, it's going to take a lot of capital and several years to build enough factories to meet the needs of multiple companies all building long range BEVs. It's straight up logistics, which most top managers at established car companies know very well. Many of these managers have forgotten more about logistics of car production and delivery than Tesla has ever known.

The optimists believe BEVs will become the big new thing with consumers sooner, the skeptics later. Regardless of supply, when the tipping point with the public is reached, there will be huge demand for long range BEVs and a drop in demand for ICE. Julian Cox talked about that in his video. The supply is not the factor, it's demand. Right now demand for long range BEVs is relatively soft. Tesla has more demand for their cars than supply, but it's not vastly larger than their supply and demand for other BEVs is not very strong at all. GM has had to deeply discount Bolts to sell them. If the established car companies had the capability to mass produce the BEVs they have and flooded the market with them, they would end up sitting on dealer's lots for a long time before selling. Once consumers were enticed enough by discounts to buy the surplus, they might find they like BEV better and it might trigger a demand surge, but it would be a very expensive experiment on the part of car companies.

The pessimists point to poor sales of non-Tesla BEVs, lack of infrastructure outside of Tesla, and lack of battery supply for mass production, which are all real world factors. Based on enthusiasm on car lots for their BEVs, they believe consumers aren't interested in BEVs right now. The non-Tesla BEVs are mostly compromised designs, short range, and many are pretty ugly. Of course they aren't selling. Though I think most pessimists admit that BEVs will be a thing someday, they just predict demand from consumers catching on decades out rather than within the next few years.

Another disrupter that could be coming soon is autonomous driving and the demand economy. That is more murky in just how it will sort out. In the US, most households have 1 car or more, even when alternatives exist and even when there are added expenses and hassles. There are people in every major city who get around with public transport and don't own a car, but New York is the only major American city without near universal car ownership. I think it's still over 50%.

When countries become more affluent, car ownership jumps, even when public transport is well established. Even when cheap, self driving taxis are available, a large number of people might choose to own their own car anyway. That may change, millennials are less interested in owning a car than previous generations, but most end up getting a driver's license and a car at some point. People's opinions evolve over time.

On the other hand a demand economy for self driving taxis might take off. A lot of pundits think so, but I think they are underestimating how much people like having their own familiar space around them.

Even if private ownership remains a thing with self driving cars, there are probably going to be some families with multiple cars today who will scale back because a self driving car can meet more people's needs in a day.

Then there are the technical challenges to get to full autonomy. The tech is developing quickly, but there are still a lot of challenges and nobody can predict when those will be overcome. Compared to BEVs, the tech for a 200+ mile BEV is solved. The price might be a bit high and battery supplies are too low, but both of those have known solutions. There are technical problems with self driving tech that the designers figure can be solved, but they don't have the best solutions even mapped out yet. They need to gather more data before they can even map out the details on those steps in the process.

When there are unanswered technical challenges between you and your goal, it's difficult to predict when you will be done. As an example, I'm facing that with my own work right now. I ran into something that I've spent months on and haven't solved. I have no idea how much time it's going to take to overcome that challenge. I could go back to it tomorrow and solve it, or it may take me another 6 months, or it may turn out to be impossible. It's a big question mark in the schedule that makes everyone nervous.

Autonomous driving has a number of these dark areas where people have some idea what is necessary, but nobody has beaten the problem yet. And with all the news coverage of the failures, it's uncertain when the public will feel safe enough to trust the tech when it is perfected. Statistics show that flying commercial is the safest form of travel, but fear of flying is more widespread than any other form of travel. Despite 60 years of a pretty substantial safety record, flying still has a bad rep. If it wasn't substantially faster than other forms of travel, especially for long trips, a lot more people would opt for other forms of travel that are really more dangerous but don't feel more dangerous.

Handing over your life to a machine with no human in the loop may ultimately prove to be safer than humans driving them, but the public may take generations to buy it. Or may never buy it.

But autonomous driving is still a potential disrupter that could change the car industry completely. When all new vehicles have autonomous capability, sales of vehicles may fall off a cliff as the public goes for car sharing taxis. Or sales may remain near current levels. Nobody knows for sure what that future holds.

As far as Tesla selling 30 million a year, unless there is a massive shrinking in suppliers and demand remains high, I doubt Tesla will have demand for that many vehicles. Just like Toyota, GM, and VW today. They all sell around 10 million, but they aren't making a lot more than that because their potential market among consumers is around 10 million. Tesla offers tech and features nobody else does, but by the time their prices are low enough and enough consumers know about what they are offering (a lot of the public don't even know Tesla only makes BEVs), the competition will likely have offerings with enough tech overlap that Tesla's advantage will be gone. It is possible the supercharger network will remain a major selling point if the rollout of CCS systems fails to materialize at the level necessary to compete head to head, or maintenance of CCS chargers remains bad, or if the number of cars is exceeding demand too often.

If Tesla does have some major advantage to consumers over the competition that the competition fails to answer, Tesla could end up selling 30 million a year, but I strongly doubt it. They will probably top out in the 5-10 million range. That would position them as one of the market leaders if not the leader, but they wouldn't be alone at the top.
 
I think it really depends on when you think BEVs will be superior to ICE at a given price point. Right now it seems that we are getting close and maybe are there with the base model 3.

If that is true then traditional manufacturers have a much larger problem. Tesla’s cost curve is decreasing as battery technology is getting better vs. BMW/ Mercedes/ Audi costs are increasing to meet pollution & efficiency requirements.

So it becomes a race of Tesla full-on ramping vs ICE manufacturers transitioning in a way to manage the decline of the cars they can build today vs where they need to be in 10-15 years.

It’s a hard position to be in. We will see it very soon with Porsche as they face trying to balance the EV sedan vs the Panamera. It’s clear that the EV should have better performance at a lower cost than the Panamera, but I highly doubt they will let that happen.
 
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Personally, im happy with Tesla selling 10 million cars per year at 25% margins. Don’t forget that Tesla’s internal goal for MS/X margins is 31-32%. I’m also happy that Tesla will have full ownership rights to their service centers, which will eventually turn profitable as more cars fall out of warranty. This will also save them lots of money from recalls that legacy automotive manufactures won’t be able to enjoy. In the end Tesla selling 10m cars per year on 25% is equivalent to other car manufactures selling 30 million/year at 7%.
 
Choosing this thread in hopes it's just nature's FUD and we have a long time to go without worry—say, another century. Worry should start in 2088 for sure. Doubtless by that time the Boring company will have a way to relieve tectonic stress by other means. I surely hope in the interim Berkeley scientists have one of their super-duper crack detectors at the Community Center.

East Bay fault is 'tectonic time bomb,' more dangerous than San Andreas, new study finds with a truly scary map.

A snippet:

"The Hayward fault is one of California’s fastest moving, and on average produces a major earthquake about once every 150 to 160 years, give or take 70 or 80 years. The last major earthquake on the Hayward fault, a magnitude 6.8, will see its 150th anniversary on Oct. 21.

'Even given the uncertainties, we are definitely closer to the next one than we are away from it,' Schwartz said recently, while showing off the giant crack in the floor of the Fremont Community Center — built on the Hayward fault — that has slowly grown since it was built in 1962."
 
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Choosing this thread in hopes it's just nature's FUD and we have a long time to go without worry—say, another century. Worry should start in 2088 for sure. Doubtless by that time the Boring company will have a way to relieve tectonic stress by other means. I surely hope in the interim Berkeley scientists have one of their super-duper crack detectors at the Community Center.

East Bay fault is 'tectonic time bomb,' more dangerous than San Andreas, new study finds with a truly scary map.

A snippet:

"The Hayward fault is one of California’s fastest moving, and on average produces a major earthquake about once every 150 to 160 years, give or take 70 or 80 years. The last major earthquake on the Hayward fault, a magnitude 6.8, will see its 150th anniversary on Oct. 21.

'Even given the uncertainties, we are definitely closer to the next one than we are away from it,' Schwartz said recently, while showing off the giant crack in the floor of the Fremont Community Center — built on the Hayward fault — that has slowly grown since it was built in 1962."
NUMMI was fine during 1989 earthquake, they might have shutdown for the next morning due to JIT parts delivert delay caused by the earthquake. Modern buildings can handle this.

P.M. BRIEFING : Quake Affects GM-Toyota Plant
 
I was also relieved to read about your information earlier. This more recent article says the projected quake though the same scale as 1989 will be more destructive in Fremont area. Also, I don't want to depress the stock by adding more to the **sugar** thrown at it. Shhhhhhh is the word.

In addition, I am not a seismologist.
 
A 7 on the Hayward fault would be significantly closer to a major metro area than the Loma Prieta quake. Loma Prieta devastated Santa Clara, but it was some distance from the major cities of the Bay Area.

The Hayward fault does creep which does relieve pressure.

I'll be seeing my sister (who is a California Geologist) next week. She's probably aware of any new information about the fault. I'll see what she has to say.