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Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

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Proving that Tesla can use other chargers, as I said. There is no CCS adapter yet because there aren't enough chargers to bother with.

CCS protocol prohibits the use of adapters. Most public fast charging stations have CCS and CHAdeMO plugs. Electrify America must not discriminate against non VW cars, my interpretation of that clause is that they must also have CHAdeMO plugs.
 
... then please show me where they are building all the battery gigafactories to produce the batteries for them!

They are building them mostly in Asia / by large Asian suppliers around the World on the cell level. Very low margins. A hard business.

The final battery assembly is then (often) done by the car makers.

Take VW for example, they signed huge contracts years in advance:

Volkswagen AG secured 20 billion euros ($25 billion) in battery supplies to underpin an aggressive push into electric cars in the coming years, ramping up pressure on Tesla Inc. as it struggles with production issues for the mainstream Model 3.

The world’s largest carmaker will equip 16 factories to produce electric vehicles by the end of 2022, compared with three currently, Volkswagen said Tuesday in Berlin. The German manufacturer’s plans to build as many as 3 million of the cars a year by 2025 is backstopped by deals with suppliers including Samsung SDI Co., LG Chem Ltd.and Contemporary Amperex Technology Ltd. for batteries in Europe and China.

VW Just Gave Tesla a $25 Billion Battery Shock

Take CATL, quoted above, as an example:

Breakingviews - China’s battery champion will charge overseas

When I mentioned (supplier) names like CATL to Tesla investors a few years ago, few to none even heard of these companies - now CATL and others will soon equal or top Panasonic’s output for Tesla.
 
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They are building them mostly in Asia / by large Asian suppliers around the World on the cell level. Very low margins. A hard business.

The final battery assembly is then (often) done by the car makers.

Take VW for example, they signed huge contracts years in advance:



VW Just Gave Tesla a $25 Billion Battery Shock

Take CATL, quoted above, as an example:

Breakingviews - China’s battery champion will charge overseas

When I mentioned (supplier) names like CATL to Tesla investors a few years ago, few to none even heard of these companies - now CATL and others will soon equal or top Panasonic’s output for Tesla.

nothing in this changes the fact that Tesla's opening for continuing torrid growth is so massive and so very far reaching out into the future, that even you tftf look at this landscape and don't see Tesla falling below 50% global market share (50% global market share!) of long range (200+ mile) EVs (excluding those made by Chinese mfgs for Chinese citizens) before 2025.

I wonder if there is another company on the US market with $10 billion in prior year revenues, 50% growth rates on average for several years running, and several years to come, that is looking in position to retain over 50% market share for the next 7 years or so. Throw in the fact that the ultimate size of the market it will be part of will have on the scale of $2 trillion in sales (when nearly all sales are EVs), and hard to imagine that Tesla is not in a category of its own.
 
1) CAFE standards are not being eliminated. They will be reduced from where the Obama administration set them.

2) ~90% if the reason legacy automakers sell BEVs and PHEVs in the US is to meet CARB ZEV requirements and 10% to meet CAFE standards. The Trump administration may try to eliminate CARB's waiver to implement their own requirements arguing that they are so strict they in effect override Federal standards rendering them meaningless and rending Federalsupremacy/authority meaningless. If not CARB has set a minimum of 22.5% of cars sold by each "large" automaker must be zero emission in 2025.

2) To fulfill its Dieselgate settlement obligations VW must spend $2.5B on zero emission vehicle refueling $800M of which must be spent in California. Some monies may end up going to H20 refueling stations but the bulk will go to CCS/CHAdeMO stations. If VW does not do it, it reopens the case to potentially larger fines and criminal prosecution. It has been estimated that when VW spends this money Electrify America charging network will be slightly larger than the Supercharger Network today. Plus the other Networks like EVgo,Chargepoint, and Blink will probably still be around.

Thanks for the clarification on the CAFE requirements. I hadn't read the details.

I suspect there will be a battle between the states and the feds over CARB, but ultimately I expect the states will probably win the fight. In this sort of thing the feds have overridden state law in the past by including language in a statute preventing the states from doing their own restrictions. This Congress is so dysfunctional I'm not sure they could pass a law like that right now.

I've never had to use anything but superchargers (and once a destination charger which is basically just an HPWC), but Tesla does make supercharging much easier than all the other charging systems out there. From what I've read from those who have used them, each one has a slightly different system and you need to sign up to various networks to get the best price, or to charge at all. And the various non-Tesla chargers have spotty maintenance. Even those who have to pay for supercharging, Tesla makes it easy.

It's back to the chicken and egg thing. When there are enough cars wanting to use other brands of fast chargers, then the owners of those chargers will put the effort into keeping them maintained. But when there are few non-Tesla EVs doing much long distance travel, it isn't worth it for the owners to pay to have the charger fixed when it breaks and it falls into disrepair. Some owners are just lazy and won't fix them even if they do make a small profit because they just don't get to it.

The article @tftf posted about Ionify points out that Ionify's European network will be reaching about the size of Tesla's European network today in 2020, at which point Tesla plans to double their European network.

In any case, I do expect other car makers to come out with competing cars with Tesla. I don't expect every car to be a failure, but I also expect Tesla to remain a dominant player in the long range EV market. This thread is about long term fundamentals and Tesla is now too big a player for a competitor to push them out of the market or marginalize them. Tesla could still fail, but the only two likely scenarios where that happens are:
1) The global economy takes another severe hit that would not only harm Tesla, but would likely bankrupt other car makers too.
2) Tesla makes some major blunder with a product roll out that drives away customers in droves. That would require the Model 3 to be so flawed it gets a reputation akin to the Pinto or the Corvair.

There are some things that could ruin the world economy again. The players who caused the 2008 crash were never stopped, they just changed the game around and kept going.

Additionally there are a number of other things that could do significant damage to the world economy like a major war on the Korean Peninsula. Seoul lies within North Korean artillery range and the city could get shelled very heavily before the artillery positions were overrun. That would essentially shut down most of the world's flat screen production for a year or two. If the North Koreans decided to be very nasty, they could load their artillery with dirty shells (radioactive) which would render one of the world's largest cities essentially uninhabitable.

There are some hopeful signs that some kind of peace could be worked out, but more than one person involved in these negotiations are not renown for their stability.

The world has other problems that could boil up into an international crisis too. A war in the Middle East that leads to the price of oil skyrocketing is one scenario that would probably help EVs. But there are others that could hurt everyone including the EV industry.

In any case, barring one of the two scenarios above, Tesla is probably here to stay for the long haul and it could become one of the biggest car makers in the world. At minimum it will likely remain a strong contender. At least making 1-5 million cars a year. Which is a decent, medium sized car company.
 
+ The Tesla SC network is planned / designed to allow long range travel, i.e. it provides travel-corridors and area coverage and redundancy of stalls at each location

- other fast chargers (Chademo, CCS) are placed ad-hoc, opportunistically and often without any redundancy
Just for information:
When I compare the map of planed stations by Ionity in Norway (the only place I cared to compare) with the Tesla supercharger map it does to a large degree match point for point, with an exemption in the northern part of the country where it seams like Ionity will have a denser coverage then Tesla, and one spot in the south that just matches a planed supercharger. In fact it looks like they are targeting the exact same gas station for their charger at this spot.

So my take on this is that they have looked carefully on where Tesla has put their chargers, and copies it as close as they can, or perhaps they are cooperating with Tesla and plan to co-locate both networks. So this network seems to be as good as the supercharger network when it's done if they stick to their plans. But I will not hold my breath waiting :p
 
Lower carb standards could be good for Tesla. It should drive more sales of gas guzzling SUVs which will require more gas and drive higher oil prices which will make Tesla's more appealing. If you recall $4+ gas and $120+ oil. The problem is that a recession would likely go right along with the higher energy costs.

Let's not forget that I'm a recession, the flight to utilities is common. The reason is that I utilities have a captive audience of customers and generate cash. You can drive less, you can buy less lattes and go to less movies, but you will still need your lights and refrigerator. Tesla's supercharger and megacharger networks will be like a very large utility. Depending on the time frames, it could be the largest utility on the planet. It would require a lot of solar and battery packs as well as a million more customers, but it could be a very good revenue stream. I know my cars costume almost as much electricity as my home. Tesla is well positioned to supply all this electricity, even in homes.
 
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nothing in this changes the fact that Tesla's opening for continuing torrid growth is so massive and so very far reaching out into the future, average for several years running, and several years to come....

Several years? Tesla is burning $, they can’t continue that for a long time - especially given upcoming direct competition with deeper pockets.
See my previous posts upthread for details.

Instead of (re-)posting many charts here, have a look at this informative Twitter thread:

Tesla Daily on Twitter

In particular charts like this one:

"Elon Says" on Twitter
 
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Lower carb standards could be good for Tesla. It should drive more sales of gas guzzling SUVs which will require more gas and drive higher oil prices which will make Tesla's more appealing. If you recall $4+ gas and $120+ oil. The problem is that a recession would likely go right along with the higher energy costs.

Let's not forget that I'm a recession, the flight to utilities is common. The reason is that I utilities have a captive audience of customers and generate cash. You can drive less, you can buy less lattes and go to less movies, but you will still need your lights and refrigerator. Tesla's supercharger and megacharger networks will be like a very large utility. Depending on the time frames, it could be the largest utility on the planet. It would require a lot of solar and battery packs as well as a million more customers, but it could be a very good revenue stream. I know my cars costume almost as much electricity as my home. Tesla is well positioned to supply all this electricity, even in homes.
Gas in California SF Bay Area is already in the $3.50/gallon range for 87 octane unleaded, some places over $3.70.
 
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Several years? Tesla is burning $, they can’t continue that for a long time - especially given upcoming direct competition with deeper pockets.
See my previous posts upthread for details.

Instead of (re-)posting many charts here, have a look at this informative Twitter thread:

Tesla Daily on Twitter

In particular charts like this one:

"Elon Says" on Twitter

wow, not only did tftf cut out the relevant part of what I wrote, in post 4588 he edited his quoting of my response to create a sentence I didn’t write.

Does it violate TMC rules to attribute to another poster a sentence of they never wrote?


Here’s what I actually wrote,


“nothing in this changes the fact that Tesla's opening for continuing torrid growth is so massive and so very far reaching out into the future, that even you tftf look at this landscape and don't see Tesla falling below 50% global market share (50% global market share!) of long range (200+ mile) EVs (excluding those made by Chinese mfgs for Chinese citizens) before 2025”
 
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wow, not only did tftf cut out the relevant part of what I wrote, in post 4588 he edited his quoting of my response to create a sentence I didn’t write.

Does it violate TMC rules to attribute to another poster a sentence of they never wrote?


Here’s what I actually wrote,


“nothing in this changes the fact that Tesla's opening for continuing torrid growth is so massive and so very far reaching out into the future, that even you tftf look at this landscape and don't see Tesla falling below 50% global market share (50% global market share!) of long range (200+ mile) EVs (excluding those made by Chinese mfgs for Chinese citizens) before 2025”
I just wonder why some people are focusing on market share when the EV market will be growing rapidly from a very small base. Right now Tesla is a big fish in a small pond. It could easily grow 10x as the market grows 100x for EVs. Batteries and solar will also grow exponentially.
 
Question:
do you think that Semis could be built "by hand"?
You need to build a lot less than a 3 (or a S/X), they cost 250k apiece, margin are hopefully good enough
and they could scale hiring more people.
I still dream that they could start building them earlier than 2020.
 
CCS protocol prohibits the use of adapters. Most public fast charging stations have CCS and CHAdeMO plugs. Electrify America must not discriminate against non VW cars, my interpretation of that clause is that they must also have CHAdeMO plugs.

I don't think CHAdeMO has a bright feature at Tesla. At this point it is not even a given that CCS has a feature at Tesla. We may be stuck at some point where Marketing overrules Technical and nixes anything but superchargers (unless legally required) Back in the day, one vocal European user managed to convince Tesla to add 3 phase charging. These days that kind of community feedback is totally lost on the organisation.
 
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Way to tweak the term in your favor, will you let me also "clarify" that Tesla doesn't have to upgrade all the SC to 350kW, just some?

Of course. I exclude the Semi because that's not very interesting and not to the point of the discussion, which was Tesla's advantage in the regular car market. Btw ABB already has 600KW chargers in service for busses. FastNed already has 175KW chargers in service for regular cars. It's a matter of time before the network itself isn't a competitive advantage anymore in several markets. Then we should turn to the car itself being able to draw that kind of power to see Tesla's competitive advantage. Here it seems the moat is bigger.
 
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Question:
do you think that Semis could be built "by hand"?
You need to build a lot less than a 3 (or a S/X), they cost 250k apiece, margin are hopefully good enough
and they could scale hiring more people.
I still dream that they could start building them earlier than 2020.

Due to the size of the pieces, it will need custom machine assistance to move and place. At that point, full automation may not be much in terms of incremental cost.
The wiring and tubing/ air lines will likely be people powered.
 
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Of course. I exclude the Semi because that's not very interesting and not to the point of the discussion, which was Tesla's advantage in the regular car market. Btw ABB already has 600KW chargers in service for busses. FastNed already has 175KW chargers in service for regular cars. It's a matter of time before the network itself isn't a competitive advantage anymore in several markets. Then we should turn to the car itself being able to draw that kind of power to see Tesla's competitive advantage. Here it seems the moat is bigger.
OK, bet's on. I don't think we'll settle this bet before 2019.