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Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

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High Matthias,

i think Mrs. Merkel wouldn't give taxpayers money as cash back to the people that can afford to buy a Model S, but let's see whether the BMW donation to her reigning party works out (BMW i3).
The state is losing a lot of money from the "mineralölsteuer" (tax on gasoline). The employee gets the car fueled up by his company.
In Germany the leasing company as the owner of an ev business car is taking profit on not having to pay the "KFZ-Steuer" for ten years.
The employee as the driver of the business car has to pay additional income taxes of 1 percent/per month on the price of the car (800/80000 euros) for the benefit of driving a business car.
As a incentive for ev-cars 500 Euros per kwh/ max 20 kwh can be deducted from 80000 gives 70000, so the employee has to pay add income taxes on 700 euros/per month.

Sorry for being off-topic.
 
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High Matthias,

i think Mrs. Merkel wouldn't give taxpayers money as cash back to the people that can afford to buy a Model S, but let's see whether the BMW donation to her reigning party works out.
The state is losing a lot of money from the "mineralölsteuer" (tax on gasoline). The employee gets the car fueled up by his company.
In Germany the leasing company as the owner of a business car is taking profit on not having to pay the "KFZ-Steuer" for ten years.
The employee as the driver of the business car has to pay additional income taxes of 1 percent/per month on the price of the car (800/80000 euros) for the benefit of driving a business car.
As a incentive for ev-cars 500 Euros per kwh/ max 20 kwh can be deducted from 80000 gives 70000, so the employee has to pax add income taxes on 700 euros/per month.

Sorry for being off-topic.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the post. This is exactly 'on topic' for the long term thread. We need to understand the geopolitical climate as best we can when it comes to growing EVs in general and Tesla specifically.
 
I found this comment to be very interesting, as it points to a means of extending the range of the Model X that should be good for demand:
One thing Tesla mentioned at the Model X reveal is that the motors are geared differently. The front motor is geared (literally and figuratively) toward efficiency at high speeds while the rear provides better low-end torque. As a result, it shifts where the power is going during normal driving to improve efficiency, while that AWD traction is available any time it's needed.

(Here's a clip where its referenced: Tesla Model X demonstration - YouTube )

How much of a difference it makes is yet to be demonstrated. The early estimates for the Model X had the taller, heavier vehicle (with the benefits of the front motor and rear view cameras in place or wing mirrors, which are not present on the current version of the prototype) as having 90% of the range of the Model S.
 
The "giga factory" is the key long-term take-away from the CC today imho...

Okay. Thank you, and we will take our next question from Andrea James from Dougherty & Company. So, Andrea, please go ahead.

Andrea James - Dougherty & Company
Hi, thanks for taking my questions. Thinking back to the cell supply issue again, and you have got this great track record of in-sourcing and building your own ERP system and the like, and I guess, can we assume that you have at least looked at building your own battery cell plant? I just wondered what your thoughts were there.


Elon Musk - Chairman of the Board, Chief Executive Officer, Product Architect
We are not quite ready to make a big announcement on the cell and battery giga factory, but we are exploring a lot of these options right now and if I were to guess. I think that we would do that giga factory with the raw materials coming in all the way to finished packs with partners and that's probably my best guess and that factory most likely would be in North America, but we are investigating other options as well.


Andrea James - Dougherty & Company
Well, thanks for that. And what is that rank? I imagine, if you look at building a more mass market vehicle car, the cell issue would be probably one of multiple. Where does that rank? Is it in the middle of all the challenges you would look at or is it close to the top?


Elon Musk - Chairman of the Board, Chief Executive Officer, Product Architect
The cell production is the biggest single constraint but I mean there are certainly many others that would one look at that on too far behind it, but I think if you look at say what's the critical mass item it is cell production, and I think we can ensure that everything else is no slower than the ramp in cell production.

Lots of open questions beyond 2014 (that year TSLA will be busy with other, short-term production issues):

How much will TSLA need to spend on that factory and supply logisitcs? Timeframe? JV with Panasonic or other battery supplier or go alone?

I think this and the Gen III will require another secondary offering one day.

PS: In other news, will Andrea have to stop covering TSLA as an analyst (née journalist) in case she moves in with Elon one day ;)?
 
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Take your trolling back to SA where the other trolls appreciate it.

My remark about Andrea included a smiley, wasn't it obvious enough?

The rest of my remark and the quote from the CC is very serious however.

The elephant in the room beyond 2014 and 2015 is the needed "giga factory" imho. Why don't we focus on that? It's the topic of this thread.

This is also why I raised the question of another secondary offering in earlier comments when the stock was close to $200. Somehow this "giga" factory has to be built and financed for the Gen III car volumes.

TSLA may soften the financial impact with a JV structure (Panasonic? Samsung? LG? Sony? Not that many options with enough know-how...).
 
I agree, the financing of the giga-factory will be interesting. I think there will be some cleverness there. I also think that their cash pile of $0.8bn (and growing) is a cruise missile aimed at that giga-factory.

They could pay the entire factory from cash on Day 1. Or they could:

1. Partner with Panasonic or others, e.g. in JV format
2. Borrow/lease a significant part of the expenditure
3. Build it in stages, to correspond to growing production

[Anything I forgot?]

My 2 cents is that they will do points 2 and 3.

I am more unsure about 1. The key reason is that this investment is more risky than what Panasonic is doing for them. I am not sure they would get good terms from a partner.

In the case of Panasonic, they are providing capacity for the current Model S and its sibling X. These models are known successes. Furthermore, I think Panasonic are reinstalling pre-existing capacity, and not building all from scratch.

In contrast, the giga-factory is for upcoming models, for which demand is not proven in the same way.
 
I agree, the financing of the giga-factory will be interesting. I think there will be some cleverness there. I also think that their cash pile of $0.8bn (and growing) is a cruise missile aimed at that giga-factory.

They could pay the entire factory from cash on Day 1. Or they could:

1. Partner with Panasonic or others, e.g. in JV format
2. Borrow/lease a significant part of the expenditure
3. Build it in stages, to correspond to growing production

[Anything I forgot?]

My 2 cents is that they will do points 2 and 3.

I am more unsure about 1. The key reason is that this investment is more risky than what Panasonic is doing for them. I am not sure they would get good terms from a partner.

In the case of Panasonic, they are providing capacity for the current Model S and its sibling X. These models are known successes. Furthermore, I think Panasonic are reinstalling pre-existing capacity, and not building all from scratch.

In contrast, the giga-factory is for upcoming models, for which demand is not proven in the same way.
The limited supply of batteries brings some issues up to me
1. Months ago Panasonic claimed tesla bought 200 million batteries. If 60 kv only 15% of sales that would be enough for about 27,000 cars. Is there an inefficiency in building the packs? How many used in r and d?
2. This is the first major failure of management. Why wasn't new contract negotiated sooner? Couldnt get more with old contract? Was Panasonic playing hard ball knowing they could take it to the limit? With that kind of leverage over company I suspect they got price increase. They should have been negotiating with samsung more than a year ago not when the battery storage room looked empty. I hope they are already negotiating next contract with other suppliers. Would not want to be negotiating with your single supplier of the major car component
3. When they discussed issue of suppliers not keeping up in last cc, I never imagined Panasonic one. Was anyone else surprised by this?
 
Cars powered by radioactive Thorium?

Thorium should not be lumped together with Uranium etc based reactors. It's a product that is by far safer to handle and maintain and has reasonable by products. CERN is hosting a conference on Thorium reactors for the future and I think Thorium is one case where you can make small scale reactors that can never go critical because it lacks the necessary mass. The radioactivity part is a small item that I think isn't too bad unless it's spewed around en mass and inhaled. The amount required to operate a car for a long long time is miniscule. But I think that's something more to be discussed in other threads and I think it'll take a long time before it can get to cars. First we need a few decades of reactors etc.
 
3. When they discussed issue of suppliers not keeping up in last cc, I never imagined Panasonic one. Was anyone else surprised by this?

A little surprised, but also pleased. Because despite the slight hold-up on Q3/Q4, it's easier to fix a problem with one supplier, than with many. Indeed, the new contract has fixed it.

What's gradually coming in to focus is this:

- to truly disrupt the automotive industry means building a whole new pipeline for delivering the key component: energy
- the scale at which this needs to take place to be more than a niche player is mind-boggling
- but whoever really believes in that vision, invests in the necessary scale, is going to end up with an incredible competitive advantage
 
The limited supply of batteries brings some issues up to me
1. Months ago Panasonic claimed tesla bought 200 million batteries. If 60 kv only 15% of sales that would be enough for about 27,000 cars. Is there an inefficiency in building the packs? How many used in r and d?
2. This is the first major failure of management. Why wasn't new contract negotiated sooner? Couldnt get more with old contract? Was Panasonic playing hard ball knowing they could take it to the limit? With that kind of leverage over company I suspect they got price increase. They should have been negotiating with samsung more than a year ago not when the battery storage room looked empty. I hope they are already negotiating next contract with other suppliers. Would not want to be negotiating with your single supplier of the major car component
3. When they discussed issue of suppliers not keeping up in last cc, I never imagined Panasonic one. Was anyone else surprised by this?

I think you misunderstand the issue. It is not one of willingness of the cell suppliers. It is one of aggregate production capacity in the industry. They are doing this as a three-stage rocket. The first stage was to soak up whatever they could from existing supply. That was the original Panasonic partnership. The second stage is negotiations with suppliers to get them to invest in expanding capacity. That is the second Panasonic deal (and potentially deals with LG/Samsung).

The third stage is to plan capacity growth beyond what the market will be willing to risk. That is the giga factory.

- - - Updated - - -

A little surprised, but also pleased. Because despite the slight hold-up on Q3/Q4, it's easier to fix a problem with one supplier, than with many. Indeed, the new contract has fixed it.

What's gradually coming in to focus is this:

- to truly disrupt the automotive industry means building a whole new pipeline for delivering the key component: energy
- the scale at which this needs to take place to be more than a niche player is mind-boggling
- but whoever really believes in that vision, invests in the necessary scale, is going to end up with an incredible competitive advantage

This +1000. This is the true competitive advantage of a disrupting player. Management at the fossil automakers might even know what they would need to do, but they know that getting such an ambitious and visionary plan through top management, the Board, shareholders etc. is a non-starter. It is simply not a career-friendly move to suggest initiatives such as "go all-in on a new EV model, that coincidentally requires building a billion-dollar giga battery plant". The BMWs of the world are simply incapable of adopting this strategy, for internal/human reasons.

I've seen this first hand. What happens is that managers instead tell each other (hopefully) how wrong everything will go. "Just wait and see what will happen to their stock when they go to raise money for the giga plant" and "I look forward to the day when the giga plant is up, and they have half the Gen 3 demand they thought they would have". Because the other guy nods and agrees, now the first manager feels safe that the feelings are widespread, and that his career will still be intact even if Tesla eats their lunch. The important thing is that the (current) main competitors are also doing next to nothing.
 
I think what this all boils down to is that we will most likely lose the MOMO investors who we haven't already lost in the last few weeks crunch. The stock price will likely correct downwards further and move sideways for 1-2 quarters with slow upwards trend (smaller angle than previously) as news about various deals and supply constraint resolves come out. This means that for short term we have a bloodpath and options in 2013 will most likely expire worthless for everyone. However it does show that real long term (i.e. 2016+) the company is positioning itself to be an absolute leader in IP and supply and will dominate the market for sure. This means that the ones winning today are the real long term investors who are sitting on stock with no plans to sell and are buying more on this correction.

I have always been options person and I will take the hit now, but I do have some LEAPs and will probably extend the relative portion of LEAPs. Playing the volatility that will ensue now is something that might work well for short term options to run down and up and down and up, but that's just pure speculative day trading. In any case, the happy days of Q to Q nice gains are mostly over now as it's clear that Tesla will not try to game the market to show momentum growth, but is really investing in fundamentals. Oh well, got to rethink short term strategies, but the long term is solid.
 
I was lucky enough to sell out of most of my calls yesterday 5 mins before close. I just felt like expectations were too high as I read all the "earnings preview" articles that were circulating.

I feel like the dynamic has changed in TSLA. As the company has become more complex (shipping to EU for instance) it has become much harder to predict earnings. Also, there is no technical trend that I can really rely on. It seems like the stock has ignored most technical signals since breaking out of its channel during the debt ceiling mess.

As a result, I think that I'm probably done playing options on TSLA for a while. It was fun, and I made a ton of money, but I just don't have an edge anymore. I'm going to wait for the next day or two to play out, then, if the price is attractive, I'll probably go back to building my common share position for the long-haul. The last time I bought common shares was for about $30.
 
I was lucky enough to sell out of most of my calls yesterday 5 mins before close. I just felt like expectations were too high as I read all the "earnings preview" articles that were circulating.

I feel like the dynamic has changed in TSLA. As the company has become more complex (shipping to EU for instance) it has become much harder to predict earnings. Also, there is no technical trend that I can really rely on. It seems like the stock has ignored most technical signals since breaking out of its channel during the debt ceiling mess.

As a result, I think that I'm probably done playing options on TSLA for a while. It was fun, and I made a ton of money, but I just don't have an edge anymore. I'm going to wait for the next day or two to play out, then, if the price is attractive, I'll probably go back to building my common share position for the long-haul. The last time I bought common shares was for about $30.

What are you going to focus on next? Solar?
 
For me, yesterday's conference call provided the justification for bringing under the aegis of this thread the topic of a battery plant - it wasn't before, in my opinion.

I remain opposed to it under normal circumstances and, were I sitting on TMC's board, would play the role of the Loyal Opposition.

Normal circumstances means that TMC is a majority owner, operator and beneficiary of the output. Co-owner/operators could be Panasonic, Samsung, LG, perhaps I Chinese player I'm not aware of.

My reasons for opposition are primarily for the difference of business from TM; secondarily for the disruption of capital flows. That latter soaking-up of capital normally would be paramount, but it is very easy to imagine a Panasonic, etc., being the Deep Pockets for such a venture, so it is easy for me to dismiss it out of hand. Thus we need look into the difference of business.

TM is a manufacturer of a highly complex end product and it is in this field that it excels. A battery is metallic (usually) tube enclosing an extremely simple set of basic chemicals, slightly enhanced by a very modest packet of electronic circuitry. It is never appropriately considered as a final product, rather, is very much a component. Batteries, thus, are a commodity product - the successful manufacturer is the one able best to design and operate its sourcing and production line marginally better than the competition, and the devil take the hindmost. Margins are minuscule; market share is everything. A fine business for some; NOT the business for an end-product corporation. In my experience, the market is littered with companies that attempted to incorporate swaths of differing businesses - the great experiments of the 1960s and 70s all came to bitter ends for ITT, LTF, Sears and even, I can argue, GE. And in this era, the financial markets despise them for its inability properly to price them.

Now, let's perform a gendankenexperiment and assume that Toyota and Mercedes also come in as partners. How might this change the environment? For me, this creates a spreading of risk and so mollifies my opposition somewhat, but it doesn't change the overall unattractiveness of the business proposition.

Now, let's assume this plant is set up to produce 18650-style batteries. Mr. Musk and company have been very careful over time to reiterate these are the most appropriate power packages for the moment, but almost certainly to be eclipsed eventually. To me, that says I dig in my heels even further until I can be convinced that, FOR NEGLIGIBLE COST, this giga-factory would be able to alter production to put out The Next Best Thing.

Now, let's further refine my earlier caveat about "normal circumstances". Here, my opposition begins to melt. Mr. Musk has been unwavering in stating his goal: to bring the world to replacing transport from an individually-powered hydrocarbon-fueled model to an all-electric (except for rockets, of course and wonderfully ironically). Tesla Motors and whatever financial success it enjoys is a player in this very grand scheme, but it is NOT the goal. So, if this gigafactory is structured as to be instrumental in this latter Big Picture, rather than as to be fundamental to the medium- and long-term success of TMC, then I have to backpedal and re-assess - as should the market. It would, I should thereupon hope, most definitely include Toyota, MB and whichever other of today's automobile companies are appropriately forward looking as partners in one way or another.

Gotta go - the day is on us.
 
It is simply not a career-friendly move to suggest initiatives such as "go all-in on a new EV model, that coincidentally requires building a billion-dollar giga battery plant". The BMWs of the world are simply incapable of adopting this strategy, for internal/human reasons.

The open questions are the money needed (even in a JV with an Asian supplier) and the timeframe to complete this factory. Is it really possible to build this factory without another secondary? I doubt it, but I don't have enough information (depends whether TSLA goes alone or with a partner and at what percentage the JV is formed).

As for "traditional" car companies being "incapable" of vertical integration in EV production: Nissan-Renault already built battery manufacturing plants in Europa, Japan and now the USA (early 2013), they are up and running on three continents:

Nissan’s New US Battery Plant Shows Major Dedication To EVs

Nissans New US Battery Plant Shows Major Dedication To EVs - HybridCars.com

I wouldn't put all competing car companies into one hat.
 
China Cuts New Car Sales by 40 Percent To Stem Air Pollution

China Cuts New Car Sales by 40 Percent To Stem Air Pollution : Auto News : Auto World News


The new regulations will favor electric vehicles and other green technologies in the hopes of stemming the country's worsening smog problems.So if they want to buy a premium EV they buy?


Great news IMO

I think this sealed the deal on that demand will not be an issue even if Tesla makes 100k model S each year. China wants to get cleaner, we have already seen this in the solar section.
 
I was lucky enough to sell out of most of my calls yesterday 5 mins before close. I just felt like expectations were too high as I read all the "earnings preview" articles that were circulating.

I feel like the dynamic has changed in TSLA. As the company has become more complex (shipping to EU for instance) it has become much harder to predict earnings. Also, there is no technical trend that I can really rely on. It seems like the stock has ignored most technical signals since breaking out of its channel during the debt ceiling mess.

As a result, I think that I'm probably done playing options on TSLA for a while. It was fun, and I made a ton of money, but I just don't have an edge anymore. I'm going to wait for the next day or two to play out, then, if the price is attractive, I'll probably go back to building my common share position for the long-haul. The last time I bought common shares was for about $30.

I wish I had sold the calls at the end of the day. I read the articles as well and wrote them off as junk. Didn't think people would be taking it to heart. Do you really think you lost the edge? I think it's just short term and bears are jumping on this opp due to Euphoria on their end.