TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
Start a Discussionhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/tags/

Look at this idiot

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Jeffruby, Feb 27, 2017.

Tags:
  1. Jeffruby

    Jeffruby Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2014
    Messages:
    112
    • Like x 4
    • Disagree x 3
  2. doubleohwhat

    doubleohwhat Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2016
    Messages:
    437
    Location:
    Alabama
    Eh, unless I'm on the interstate or a similar road, I stick to TACC. I enjoy life too much to risk mine letting AP take me through an intersection with no lines. It's just not worth it.
     
    • Like x 1
  3. voltaren

    voltaren Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Messages:
    216
    Location:
    Annapolis, MD
    The guy was doing circles in a business park with oversized single lanes. No wonder autopilot couldn't figure it out. Still, I hope AP figures it out and quickly, or Tesla is farther from FSD than I realized.
     
  4. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,994
    Location:
    Snohomish, WA
    What I don't understand is why AP was allowed to engage in this situation. At no time did I see both lines show up on the screen. So why allow it to engage?

    With AP1 I don't think I've ever even tried to engage it without two solid lines.
     
    • Like x 1
  5. Dan43

    Dan43 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2013
    Messages:
    400
    Location:
    UK
    On AP1 for me I get better recognition on lines in roads at night, with headlights on the AP picks up the lines a lot better.

    AP1 for me on a clear day has worked fine with one line showing, but mostly needs 2 for a better lock on the centre of the road.

    This should have been made clear that 'under these circumstances' this can happen, or similar??
     
  6. Brunton

    Brunton Pontificating the obvious

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2014
    Messages:
    365
    Location:
    Summerville SC
    AP1 works fine for me with one blue line. Without two lines, it does "hunt" a bit at times, but no more than 12-18 inches, I would say, and not generally very dramatically. It has never done what the video shows, even when both lines vanish and all it can recognize is the road surface in general. It does get a bit wonky in that case, though, and begins to hunt more seriously. That's when I take over.

    AP2 is in very early days. Give it time and I'm sure it will showed marked improvement in cases like this one.
     
  7. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,048
    Location:
    Smithfield, VA
    I use autopilot (AP1) all the time on roads where I'm in the right lane and there's an unpainted gutter next to me. Works great (although there is slightly more hunting than with a line on each side) and I rarely have to take over.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    3,978
    Location:
    Clark Co, WA
    I've had the icon come up to engage AP1 with only one line. On a few occasions it's come up when it sees a seam in the road from a repair. I've never engaged it in those situations. I only engage AP on the highway.
     
  9. davinci2017

    davinci2017 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    229
    Location:
    Milpitas, CA, USA
    I dont know, I think its fair for a user to enable auto-steer when the car "ALLOWS" you to enable it and expect it to work reasonably well or disable itself with a warning. I do think this type of criticism for Tesla's AP2 hardware is deserved since they are way behind on schedule and from my experience it seems nowhere near prime-time (especially on auto-steer)
     
    • Like x 3
  10. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2015
    Messages:
    1,994
    Location:
    Snohomish, WA
    I agree even if I'm a little more cautious in my own usage. If it allows me to engage it then I have an expectation that it will perform reasonably unless the situation suddenly changes.

    In this case it allowed a user to engage it in a place where it appeared to have zero mapping information of the road.

    We can call the driver an idiot because well he was, and he probably scared the crap out of some of the oncoming drivers. But, honestly I'm pretty critical of Tesla for allowing it to be enabled. In some future version when it performs better then allow it to be enabled with only one blue line.

    Or no blue lines if it advances to the stage of not even needing lines.
     
  11. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    4,902
    Location:
    Delaware
    Definitely a poor choice of roads (or a good choice of roads to have problems, which may be the goal of this video.) Sometimes AP1 can handle a road like that, but honestly I'd expect it to struggle with that one, with the variable width and openings.

    The lack of a defined line on the right makes my X much less stable/confident (you can feel the steering hunting,) though in recent builds it can still manage okay if the width is consistent and there aren't a lot of openings in the side.
     
  12. hill

    hill Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Messages:
    852
    Location:
    Lake Forest, CA
    Watched the video after reading a bunch of threads of disgruntled new owners with big wrinkles in their new leather. Their support critter walks them over to others in the show room, and shows them the same thing in the other cars & tells them, see? that's normal - there all like that! Ha !!! What do you say ... "are you kidding?!?" or maybe ya just gotta laugh.
    Autopilot? supposedly, these conditions are supposed to be no brain'ers for AP2. Ours has done that, and worse since November ... or, it just shuts the safety features down alltogether. I wonder if the service people will try & use the same alabi on AP2. "see? they all do that".
    .
     
  13. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    4,902
    Location:
    Delaware
    Where did you get the idea that these conditions are no brainers for AP2?

    Aside from bad weather, it's about as bad as things get, and far outside the official goals for Autopilot.

    Granted FSDC cars should be able to handle that eventually, but Tesla has a lot of work to do before that, which I believe they've been quite clear about.
     
  14. SmartElectric

    SmartElectric Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,535
    Location:
    Toronto,Canada
    Let's get this straight. So called disgruntled owner didn't try out a Tesla before ordering? If the other cars are all like that, it is normal, check the car out before purchase if you are overly picky.
     
  15. shinmc

    shinmc New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2017
    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    I am the idiot you were talking about. I am not sure why testing autopilot at the public local road is problematic when the feature is called "local autosteer". In comments, I even said it was "Beta". Also, the oversized road is part of the local road and you expect autopilot to not work? when the feature is called "local autosteer"?
     
    • Like x 4
  16. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    3,978
    Location:
    Clark Co, WA
    Writing firmware that controls hardware is not easy. And for firmware that could kill someone with its bugs, the safety certification usually takes longer than writing the code. Elon's software experience was mostly website programming and the backend systems to support that. I don't think he completely understands the differences with mission critical firmware, and tends to over promise.

    It isn't just a Tesla thing. I worked in the certification lab that did engineering test on all the avionics on Boeing's commercial aircraft. I was there through the whole 777 program and the lab went from 150 people to 1500 to build the hardware setups to test (my group), write all the software for the testing scenarios, and then support all the testing. The actual testing was done by other people coming in.

    The 777 was 2 years late and $1 billion over budget (I know a guy personally responsible for $100 million of the over run). The FAA is far, far more picky about firmware safety than the NHSTA. But there is still the product liability issues Tesla and other companies developing auto driving tech need to consider.

    I'm not surprised the AP2 firmware is late. The computer driving the car has more data to work with, which is both good and bad. It's good because it can figure out more edge situations that the AP1 hardware could, but it compounds the error testing in the firmware because every scenario where the sensors are in conflict has to be dealt with, plus the processor is having to handle more data coming in.

    I've done a fair bit of firmware development, but very little mission critical stuff. I know what the mission critical stuff (aircraft certified) has to go through for the FAA though. For my bit, I just had to write the low level hardware driving code on the tester side. The worst thing that would happen if I screwed up was a test would fail and I would be called in to do an emergency fix to get the test going again, but that was rare. The simulation code failed most of the time.
     
  17. hill

    hill Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Messages:
    852
    Location:
    Lake Forest, CA
    #17 hill, Mar 1, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
    for starters? Tesla gave me the idea these conditions are no brainers;



    If you watch the video that Tesla put out (can't help but notice it's no longer on their startup page) - you won't find a single hint that the car will try & run you under a semi trailer .... or lunge for the next freeway offramp as the slow lane widens towards the merge-off lane.
    And I certainly hope that this answer doesn't prompt some fan (as we to still are) to say, "oh ... well that's the more fancy version. If anything, it just shows how far out autonomous control actually is. Both 'safety' levels require a lot more updating, and that fact was left out during the negotiating sale. That's the kind of silence that gets sales, but tends to justifiably cause mis-trust.
    The sales critter saying "all are like that" doesn't mean it's the truth. It's an entirely different issue, that perhaps i failed to simplify for understandability. The Tesla rep in essence is (unconsciously) claiming, "this is an all-to-common issue" ... or ... "well hey, just be glad, that YOUR leather isn't as horrible as this demo, or this demo" .... or if the rep is more understanding / sympathetic they may say, "yea, it's a common issue that Tesla is trying to remedy". But certainly they ought NOT to be trying to convince owners/fans that issues are what they are, and if you whine enough they'll re-do stuff, until they make it right. Hope that helps.
    .
     
    • Like x 1
  18. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    4,902
    Location:
    Delaware
    This road has shoulder markings and isn't nearly as curved - and Tesla didn't in any way promise that your car was currently capable of doing this, just that it would be someday.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  19. adwang

    adwang Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2016
    Messages:
    43
    Location:
    Eagle, idaho
    I totally agree with you.

    Tesla should NOT release such "Beta", if you can call it beta, software in the first place.
     
  20. hill

    hill Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Messages:
    852
    Location:
    Lake Forest, CA
    Still missing the point. A more blatant comparison; Our 1st new car was an early 1970's Chevy Vega. Quickly they all disintigrated. Most were out of warranty, as was ours. The Dealerships for the most part, sluffed it off. That lack of attention to detail had its consequences. Next thing you knew, a decade or more later, the japanese auto industry is eating our lunch. Think about it, the general industry is now getting into the electric market, and (like the 1970's example) they will easily learn from the lack of attention to detail many Tesla owners are experiencing. Anyone can make excuses. The winner in the industry won't.
    .
     

Share This Page