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Looking for Dead PEM and other drive-train components

Discussion in 'Roadster' started by ElectricLove, Aug 18, 2015.

  1. ElectricLove

    ElectricLove Member

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  2. TOBASH

    TOBASH Member

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    I'm confused...

    Weren't you just saying how pissed you were with Tesla and as such you were getting rid of your roadster with a salvage title?

    How can you repair PEM's without a test vehicle to ensure they work?

    Just curious.

    Best,

    T
     
  3. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle Active Member

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    Yes and he was very upset they would not service car without an inspection that he would have to pay for
     
  4. shrink

    shrink Member

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    This looks like your Roadster on eBay:

    Tesla Roadster Base Convertible 2 Door | eBay

    I thought I saw you consider posting it for sale here, but I think the thread was deleted? How are you going to test PEM's without a vehicle - or are you planning on tinkering with another salvage?

    I know you've got some skills, have built EV's, and have done some other restorations.

    Just not sure how much of a market there will be for this since if a PEM is damaged, I think most owners would take it directly to Tesla for repair.
     
  5. TOBASH

    TOBASH Member

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    His thread was deleted. I would assume it was deleted because this is not the classifieds section, but also because of the outright hostility to Tesla in general, (he did a salvage repair and we know Tesla does not really support salvage repairs. He must have run into "issues").

    I too would go directly to Tesla for a PEM issue as that would ensure the repair is warrantied, but as time goes on I guess others may go to independent shoppes.

    He has a PEM to work on, but he has decided to sell it on "That Auction Site". As most of us would send our cars in for service and not keep the broken items, I think he will have a hard time finding a PEM to practice on. My car is under full warranty, so it is unlikely I would have an opportunity to keep defective replaced parts after Tesla Authorized Service. As time goes on perhaps that will change with my car and the others under warranty.

    On the one hand, I wish him well as we may all need independents like him in the future.

    On the other hand, the vitriolic nature and outright anger towards Tesla contained in his recently deleted post makes me pause and wonder if this is the guy I want working on my Tesla.

    My humble opinion(s). Your mileage may vary.

    Best,

    T
     
  6. lmore

    lmore Member

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    #6 lmore, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
    I have some comments based on my experience repairing a PEM in a Roadster I owned before. I might have posted something similar to this before, sorry.

    What does Tesla charge?
    If there is any damage of a PEM, Tesla charges the owner the amount of purchasing a brand new PEM, in addition they take the damaged PEM in return. PEM-failure happened to me only once but as I hear it is not uncommon and cost was and perhaps still is ~10k USD?

    Low cost solution: Call your electronics friends and fix it yourself.
    Luckily I managed to find highly skilled electronics guys that helped me fix it, so I said no thanks to the offer I got from Tesla of replacing the PEM. If you send me a damaged PEM I'll consider getting together the same group of skilled people and give it a shot at fixing it for half of what Tesla charges. I guess most people, if they were aware of someone else could fix it (which they are usually not), would still choose to have it done by Tesla Motors.

    How to test the PEM if you don't have the actual Roadster the PEM belongs to?
    You need a Roadster and replace the PEM with the repaired PEM that needs testing. I think a read a post here on the forum where the put a PEM with a SPORT label on a non-SPORT roadster, so that should not be a problem. I guess you can interchange 2.0 and 2.5 PEM, but probably not 1.5. I currently have a 2.0 Roadster.
     
  7. ElectricLove

    ElectricLove Member

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    Some of you guys are really "sensitive" on behalf of the multi-billion dollar company that is Tesla.

    Couple points: I am willing to pay $1,200 for the inspection, if I knew what I was paying for (unlike the Model S process the Roadster process lacks any official documentation outlining what needs to be inspected). I dislike Tesla's current service model and it's inability to service the needs of ALL Tesla owners, I don't dislike Tesla vehicles in general, quite the opposite. I've always been an Electric Vehicle guy and right now Tesla is the only company doing Electric Vehicles the honor they deserve (in design and ability).

    My issues with the service program from Tesla are exactly why I am motivated to create a 3rd party solution, while the "typical" Tesla buyer doesn't mind spending $10K every time their PEM says "fault" (assuming that at some point they are no longer warrantied...) there are still a number of owners (and this group is growing) who are not OK with that as their ONLY solution. If we can polish the skills necessary to rebuild these Modules and provide that service to Tesla-owners at a lower cost, in my opinion, it will improve the reputation of the vehicles and their "service-ability".

    Now, in answer to the "how to test the PEM"; I work with a company and we own multiple Tesla Roadsters collectively (EV nuts, of course!). That portion of the equation is not an issue. I can also say the other Roadster owners are similarly disenchanted with the Tesla service model and also would be looking for a 3rd party solution as soon as warranties expire.

    Yes, my car is listed on eBay and I didn't "run into a problem" just lost my interest in being the guy who fights so hard to help Tesla service center figure out how to better meet all of their customer needs. I am not a guy who can't afford to buy a Tesla, I am truly their target demographic (both an EV lover and one with the money to buy generally whatever I want), I can't help but think that if this sort of thing is a problem for me it will definitely be a problem for a large number of people in the future.

    I went to Tesla service center last week and now they have told me they won't sell me parts (any parts, even decals, which I was looking to buy due to a mishap with the car-washing business in my area) until I do their "inspection". I again prompted that I would gladly do so if they provided me with details on what exactly will be inspected and the manager said he could do a courtesy inspection. He certainly seemed a little more willing to work with me than previously (seems to me this "courtesy inspection" should have been done in the first place, not after aggressive back-and-forth...) but in the end of the inspection I still didn't feel totally confident that they knew exactly what would be inspected (they don't do the inspections, a 3rd party does). I understand it is "low volume" and they may truly not know but I am not comfortable being the guy to pay them $150/hr to figure it out, it is something they should have figured out on their own and not on my dollar.
     
  8. djf

    djf Member

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    ElectricLove's point is well-stated, logical and honest - those objecting shouldn't shoot the messenger. The very big issue it addresses should not be obscured by the small details of the interaction described over an inspection procedure and its cost, or even the core thread issue of PEM repair. The big issue is that overall support for the Roadster by TMC is weak and inconsistent at best.
    As a new Roadster owner who is overwhelmingly pleased with the still-futuristic performance and styling of this magnificent and storied vehicle, I have to say I have been surprised and even stunned at some points regarding TMC's seemingly disinterested and unsupportive attitude toward the Roadster. It is especially surprising and disappointing in that the Roadster owners can and should be viewed as a very special constituency of both EV and TMC loyalists and enthusiasts. Even with the advent of the "breadwinner" Model S on which the company's fortunes presently rest, it doesn't make sense to me that a luxury ("Premium" in TMC's own description) automaker should be so indifferent to its flagship product. In all my years of owning Porsches and BMWs I always felt that the company's appreciation of the legacy vehicles and their owners was very much there, but not so with Tesla. And this should not be about original versus subsequent Roadster owners - the vehicle itself is the flagship and bespeaks legacy in every way, no matter who owns it.
    TMC's lackadaisical attitude toward the Roadster is obvious when one visits the TMC website - no mention of the Roadster or support for owners whatsoever! The lack of support is manifested in a number of important ways: 1- discontinuation of some parts and failure to maintain a ready and easy supply of others (quite in contrast to Porsche and others), 2- limited service tech familiarity with and ability to work on the Roadster versus the Model S, and 3-absolutely no addressing of Roadster charging needs on the road (it escapes me how anyone could possibly have made the decision to not put in a Roadster charger or two at the Supercharger stations - this is a slap in the face to legacy). These 3 weaknesses are each huge and taken together paint a very clear and bleak picture of TMC's view of its duty to the Roadster and its owners. Fortunately Roadster owners are enormously appreciative of the car's history and also provide tremendous support and technical know-how to the Roadster community by means of this outstanding forum. Developments like Henry Sharp's CanJR/SR exemplify the power and dedication of Roadster owners like Henry and the power that the Roadster owners group has to support each other. But I must say I have been surprised at how little attention has actually been paid in this forum to the elephant-in-the-room issue of TMC's very unimpressive support level for the Roadster and its owners. I may start another thread on this someday, perhaps entitled "Show us some love, Elon". IMHO, TMC needs to get an organized and clear message on this from our group - it would not surprise me if, on the merits, they were to change their attitude - because anyone who looks at the very weak level of TMC support for the Roadster now can't help but come to the simple conclusion: That ain't right. We Tesla fanboys (and girls) and all those who love the company and have perhaps been blinded a bit by their stock gains need to open our eyes and see the obvious truth - and try to do something about it. I don't mean to be contentious here, just honest - so I welcome rebuttal and would love to be shown I am wrong!
     
  9. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle Active Member

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    I am not shooting the messenger but the person listing the car on different sites multiple times without mentioning the issue that buyer will need to get inspection before tesla decides whether to service or not. Knowing that and not being upfront about it is not fair to potential buyers
     
  10. ElectricLove

    ElectricLove Member

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    I have my vehicle listed on 1 (one) site... Not multiple...

    I also don't consider that information something I am required to disclose, I am not trying to pass this off as a pristine non-salvaged vehicle. It is salvaged and I am listing about $20K less than non-salvaged because of that, that alone comes with its own inherent risks and I don't feel obligated to list those and explain that to a buyer, I've not had the experience in my past of any seller doing that to me personally.

    Whether the new owner wants to pay Tesla and have it inspected or not is up to them, I'm not telling them they can have it serviced by Tesla (if they asked I would be honest about the situation) and the reality is that if they bought it in another area with a different SC, they may have a different experience anyways, so why should I be absolute?

    I don't mind some scrutiny but I don't personally feel I'm being unfair by not describing that Tesla is a pain in the butt to deal with on anything other than a warrantied vehicle, despite this being their "golden child" supposedly...
     
  11. djf

    djf Member

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    Re: "on anything other than a warrantied vehicle"

    I think ElectricLove just hit on what may be a key explanation of the paradox of why Roadster owners in this forum have largely been silent and not too concerned about TMC's lukewarm support of the Roadster: perhaps most are still on extended or CPO warranty. It may well be that many of the difficulties are invisible to those still on warranty (though lack of on-the-road charging infrastructure which would be easily remedied by a small number of 70A charging stations in the Supecharger network would seem to affect all). I think this issue will very naturally come to the fore a few years down the line when most Roadsters are off any kind of warranty. Then the "orphan child" status of the Roadster will be felt more acutely by all and there may be some group interest in trying to prevail upon the company to do better... We shall see. In the meantime, I am and will remain a very interested observer just learning the ropes from all you old pros!
     
  12. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    While I agree with many of ElectricLove's and djf's concerns, my experience with Tesla's support for the Roadster has been very different. I've found that they are very motivated to take care of us, especially original owners whether in or out of warranty. I've also found a strong desire to support the Roadster on a corporate level, not "lukewarm" as you call it. We're not aware of a lot of things they've done quietly behind the scenes. And what about 3.0? Porsche and BMW have never done anything like that. Yeah, I'm disappointed that they didn't install any HPCs with some of the superchargers, but my experience is that they've tried very hard to keep parts available.

    I agree with ElectricLove's reasons for wanting to start a PEM repair business. Currently if one tiny part on one little circuit board goes bad, Tesla's policy is to replace the whole thing with a new or rebuilt unit at a substantial cost. The PEM contains a lot of wear items. Yes, it has parts that wear out, so all of us that drive our cars will have to face this. I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to force customers to replace the whole thing when it only needs one capacitor or a fan wire plug that burned out. Having said that, I can understand why Tesla has chosen the policy that they did. If there were a fire or an accident, both of which could result from an improperly repaired PEM, Tesla would lose 1 $billion market cap overnight and it would slow the adoption of EVs. These risks are remote especially with someone like ElectricLove who probably knows what he's doing. But I can see why Tesla is not about to take that chance. Regardless, I'd rather see Tesla respond to this risk by allowing independent technicians to go to training sessions so they can repair a PEM instead of forcing people to pay 7 - 10k for a new or rebuilt unit. My .02
     
  13. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    Absolutely agree with Henry here, regarding Tesla's support of Roadster owners. We both know some stories.

    I've been off warranty for over a year & it's not something I worry about. They've treated me very fairly - even some hard-to-find parts were found - they haven't forgotten who was there with them in the beginning.
     
  14. gregd

    gregd Member

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    I have to agree with hcsharp on this, too. I have found that the local SC has gone out of their way to support me and the car, and track down any problems. That I'm the car's second owner, out of warranty, has not been a factor at all. In fact, after trying multiple ways to find the source of my 1146 errors, they worked with the engineering dept back at HQ and finally tracked down one of the issues to a burned contact on one of the PEM connectors. The replacement (rebuilt) unit cost me all of $10.something. Not $10k, $10. Plus a bit of labor, which I was more than happy to pick up. They also figured out the air leak around the PEM intake, and I've been trouble free since then.

    The only problem now is that I have to wash the car myself for a change...
     
  15. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle Active Member

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    Saw 2 messages on tmc before they were deleted and the current site. you were aware that this statement not true. I also dispute that you should not have to disclose this. Makes me wonder about other statements you make
     
  16. ElectricLove

    ElectricLove Member

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    My attempt to list it here lasted all of about a couple hours, I'm not sure how that is considered a simultaneous listing... I didn't list on eBay until AFTER my TMC posting was removed... But, not even sure why that was relevant enough for you to feel the need to respond and argue about it, other than what appears to be an attempt to discredit me...

    The fact that different owners are getting different experiences with Service Center needs is sort of the point that is trying to be made, it is truly inconsistent. One owner may have a great experience and find a knowledgeable staff about their vehicle (though the need to contact HQ to diagnose the vehicle would suggest maybe they aren't...) and others have found service centers who don't understand their vehicle. I have purchased a lot of parts from Tesla (up until last week when it was determined by SC manager that now is the time to "pull the plug" so to speak...) and for some of them I've waited 3 or more weeks to become available. Pricing has been "OK" on most of the parts but some have also been much too high; example - hood hinges are ~$900 for the set.

    Anyways, I will again restate I am not a "Tesla-hater" by any means, I love what they've created. My greatest concern is in moving from a company that caters to the affluent (like they are currently set-up to do) to one that caters to "everyone" (like their stock valuation and outlook suggest is in their future)... There is a very big difference between losing money consistently (like they do now) and becoming a massively profitable company (like Google or Apple), at some point the "culture" needs to shift to cater to more than just the "elite".

    Note, as another "proof" that I love Tesla vehicles; I do own one, I feel like people forget that... I was in the recent past shopping for a Model S (which I've now reconsidered, at least for now) and came very close to pulling the trigger on the P85D (after a brilliant test-drive!); however I am a person who will not invest myself (financially or personally) into something that I don't fully believe in or feel "wronged-by" in any way.
     
  17. jeremyz

    jeremyz Member

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    I like the idea of there being a third party repair service for things like the PEM. I like the idea of a third party that would jam a Model S drivetrain into a Roadster more though.
     
  18. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    While I wish you much luck, electriclove, your characterization of Roadster owners as forgotten and overcharged immediately turned me off.

    One thing I really insisted on in business was that we not use the competition as a reason to buy our product - our product should be good enough to stand alone. If your service is better than Tesla's service, then that's the best advertisement of all. But when you have owners here responding and saying we're not unhappy, that's a good data point that should be considered. And when you talk about $10k PEM repairs, but an owner tells you his was replaced for minimal cost (2nd owner, definitely not under warranty), that should be applauded.

    Could things change? Sure. But Tesla has not forgotten their flagship product in my experience (and the experience of some others who have posted here). There are definitely some customers that have gotten under their skin and perhaps haven't had as positive an experience.

    Bottom line for me? If your service is better, you'd get my business. But talking down Tesla is a small red flag for me. You shouldn't need to do that to get business.
     
  19. wiztecy

    wiztecy Active Member

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    #19 wiztecy, Aug 20, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
    Good points to make. I think there's something really missing here though. Tesla does a full diagnostics on why the PEM went out, they also look into past data of Roadsters or what they call "knowledge base" and from there make a decision if the issue rooted further, hypothetically speaking such as if the battery was the root cause that blew the PEM. By just repairing the PEM the true issue is not resolved and the PEM would just blow out again. So would a 3rd party fix that PEM again free under warranty, and more importantly be honest enough to flag that they didn't fix the root issue due to lack of understanding the full system? My guess is no. In my opinion, there's just not enough know-how by a 3rd party technician at this point in order to do a confident repair that is highly confident it won't break down the road. Even Tesla has this issue, but my level in confidence that the repair will hold is higher due to their "knowledge base". And this "knowledge base" is data that's built up over time across many many different Roadsters and driving habits/conditions/environments.

    And look at liability. What if that 3rd party PEM cuts out due to a repair issue right as a Roadster is pulling out in traffic and the car gets broadsided. This is a case that has to be brought up front. What then? If lawyers get a hold of that one and you're not incorporated, you'll get sued until your home and everything you worked for is gone.

    Now if it was a simple IC fix, such as where the Roadster got hit and the PEM got crushed causing the circuit to damage like in Markos case. Well that is a lower risk fix by a 3rd party, but again it carries with its share of liability risks.

    And for a warranty, Tesla covers the repair very well and I believe up to a year after a major component is replaced. Not only that, if their work caused damage to the ESS/Battery, they'll replace that and be honest that their repair took that out with no extra charge to the Roadster owner.

    As for Tesla not supporting an out of warranty Roadster. That is not true. Possibly you were mentioning that in respect to rather a salvage Roadster. In that regard to warranty, I've had my ESS replace 3 months after my original Roadster warranty expired. It didn't even need to be replaced, but I had commented in a professional manner to Tesla at my local service center that I felt the battery range was dropping faster that I would have expected. I did not buy any extended warranties and still don't to this day. But in any event, the ESS was not the issue at all that I was experiencing with my Roadster. What I really had was a 12V issue that faulted inside the ESS that prevented the Roadster to operate normally. The 12V aux system in my 1.5 uses I believe sheet 1&2 for its 12v power supply and the 2.x models uses the small 12v battery under the front passenger fender. So when I had the fault in my 1.5 the ESS had to be lowered to access and diagnose. Tesla did the 12V repair under goodwill as well as replaced the ESS that was as healthy as you could get. The pack climbed all the way up to 160 CAC after it was settled in and the car as well as the ESS is performing as it should, and it has to be since its my daily driver of a 75 mile daily round trip commute. But the story does not stop there, my 12v guts and my ESS were sent back to Fremont so they can do an investigation with the full system to fully understand the failure. This investigation when finished goes into that knowledge base I was talking about earlier which makes life easier on Tesla as well as the customer in the future. So my experience with Tesla has been overall extremely overall a positive one.

    Only thing I fear of is that we're finding the Roadster expertise has been trickling out of the service centers, mostly due in part of the Model-S success and Model-X anticipation. But I do know they still have that knowledge base they built which is a diamond mine when it comes down to troubleshooting an issue that is not obvious in the Roadster.

    But then some people will go for the 3rd party PEM repair, why, its cheaper and they may not have the funds or cannot and will not justify the high cost of repair. Or they may just believe its way to high for a company to charge for a product. Well these people hopefully understand *all* risks involved with buying a repair job from a 3rd party. Its exactly like when someone buys a salvaged vehicle. The same rational applies. Also the same risk assessments apply. Before buying a salvage vehicle all risks, including support of the vehicle must be understood. More importantly safety of not only you but others who are driving / walking beside you while the vehicle is operating should be considered in this risk assessment.

    I honestly was considering, before buying #268 used 3 years ago, that I could only justify paying a salvaged price for a Roadster. What, 70k for an electric car. Come on! So I looked around on eBay and other venues. I felt confident with my skills I could pick one up for over half the cost of what they were going new, throw 10k into it, and be ahead of the game. But then that all screeched to a halt after my further research, thanks to this forum (which is the best source of data to look at when buying a Roadster), relieved that Tesla does not appear to support salvaged Roadsters. I could have called corporate to find the true details, but to me, it made sense of why this particular company chose that route.
     
  20. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    (Hey! Welcome back, wiztecy. :) )
     

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