Losing interest in the Tesla Brand

[croman]

I can't buy any cars from companies that cheated and gamed the emission system. Those execs should be in prison and those companies should have paid way more in settling those egregious claims that harmed millions.

 

[ucmndd]

I can't buy any cars from companies that cheated and gamed the emission system. Those execs should be in prison and those companies should have paid way more in settling those egregious claims that harmed millions.

Dieselgate and the sizable buyback (I drove the car for 2 years, 80k miles and they bought it back from me for $2k less than I bought it for) is what got me into a Tesla in the first place.

 

[whitex]

I agree, it is ironic, but if another company makes a superior product, I will buy it. At east VW bought out the affected cars like @ucmndd said, almost new price - if they were to follow Tesla examples, they should have downgraded all the cars to be less powerful but comply with the emissions, and then tell customers how their car are totally capable of the power except for the pesky emissions (akin to Tesla telling me 2 years after they sold me the car how my car is in fact capable of 691hp as they advertised, except for the minor detail of the battery which limits it to 463hp). Or maybe VW should have tried BS'ing people how WV emissions are different, like JB tried to BS us first how EV hp measurement is somehow different (that was before they finally had to admit the truth after a court settlement in Europe).

So, @ucmndd bought a car which had some rated horsepower while meeting emissions, then it turned out the car doesn't meet emissions so they refunded him the price of the car less $2K. I bought a 691hp car which turned out doesn't even come close, all I got was a BS excuse. Sorry, even after dieselgate, for which I do believe people should have been held responsible (and they are, like the VW CEO who was arrested last year), my experience with Tesla honesty has been worse (I have owned 2 VW's in my life, though not diesel ones). How many people bought a Full Self-Driving capable car which will be able to drive itself for the Tesla Ride Sharing Network? Just because Elon can bamboozle people by changing the definition of what FSD means (no mention anywhere of unattended self-driving anymore, now FSD consisting mostly of features from old EAP), doesn't make it honest unless he's offering full refund to people who bought it with the previous description. Oh yes, he has the fine print to hide behind... it will be delivered one day, just nobody can tell when, 10 years from now, 50 years, 200 years, either of those fits the fine print.

 

[PWlakewood]

I agree, it is ironic, but if another company makes a superior product, I will buy it. At east VW bought out the affected cars like @ucmndd said, almost new price - if they were to follow Tesla examples, they should have downgraded all the cars to be less powerful but comply with the emissions, and then tell customers how their car are totally capable of the power except for the pesky emissions (akin to Tesla telling me 2 years after they sold me the car how my car is in fact capable of 691hp as they advertised, except for the minor detail of the battery which limits it to 463hp). Or maybe VW should have tried BS'ing people how WV emissions are different, like JB tried to BS us first how EV hp measurement is somehow different (that was before they finally had to admit the truth after a court settlement in Europe).

So, @ucmndd bought a car which had some rated horsepower while meeting emissions, then it turned out the car doesn't meet emissions so they refunded him the price of the car less $2K. I bought a 691hp car which turned out doesn't even come close, all I got was a BS excuse. Sorry, even after dieselgate, for which I do believe people should have been held responsible (and they are, like the VW CEO who was arrested last year), my experience with Tesla honesty has been worse (I have owned 2 VW's in my life, though not diesel ones). How many people bought a Full Self-Driving capable car which will be able to drive itself for the Tesla Ride Sharing Network? Just because Elon can bamboozle people by changing the definition of what FSD means (no mention anywhere of unattended self-driving anymore, now FSD consisting mostly of features from old EAP), doesn't make it honest unless he's offering full refund to people who bought it with the previous description. Oh yes, he has the fine print to hide behind... it will be delivered one day, just nobody can tell when, 10 years from now, 50 years, 200 years, either of those fits the fine print.

If you purchased FSD and you didnt get it yet then theres really nothing you or anyone else can do if the fine print covers that detail. It sucks and I agree if you purchased something you have a reasonable expectation to get whatever it is.

 

[whitex]

If you purchased FSD and you didnt get it yet then theres really nothing you or anyone else can do if the fine print covers that detail. It sucks and I agree if you purchased something you have a reasonable expectation to get whatever it is.

There was no fine print with 691hp. Neither was there any fine print on AP1 summon which was supposed find me anywhere on private property, or at least meet me at the curb which is not directly on your driveway (there was even a diagram on the site showing how the car would back up and then make a 90 degree to meet you at the curb in front of your house). Yes, after some of the early customers sued, they started adding fine print which absolves them from delivering any FSD features in the year 4000 when they can still claim they are awaiting software validation.

My point was Tesla has been dishonest with their customers more than VW, and didn't even compensate customers like VW for their dishonesty. So, if I'm willing to buy from Tesla, why would I not be willing to do business with VW?

 

[Chaserr]

That AP1 text should be used to force Tesla to give AP2.5 to AP1 owners. Smart Summon was an AP1 advertised feature, no fine text it was spelled out as a reason to purchase Autopilot. They're now delivering it to AP2.5 cars, and AP1 owners have waited longest for that promise to be fulfilled.

 

[whitex]

That AP1 text should be used to force Tesla to give AP2.5 to AP1 owners. Smart Summon was an AP1 advertised feature, no fine text it was spelled out as a reason to purchase Autopilot. They're now delivering it to AP2.5 cars, and AP1 owners have waited longest for that promise to be fulfilled.

P100D produces the power sold to P85D owners, but trust me, nobody is getting any free upgrades. If it was VW, maybe, Tesla, not a chance.

 

[Buddyroe]

There was no fine print with 691hp. Neither was there any fine print on AP1 summon which was supposed find me anywhere on private property, or at least meet me at the curb which is not directly on your driveway (there was even a diagram on the site showing how the car would back up and then make a 90 degree to meet you at the curb in front of your house). Yes, after some of the early customers sued, they started adding fine print which absolves them from delivering any FSD features in the year 4000 when they can still claim they are awaiting software validation.

My point was Tesla has been dishonest with their customers more than VW, and didn't even compensate customers like VW for their dishonesty. So, if I'm willing to buy from Tesla, why would I not be willing to do business with VW?

I've never really understood the butt-hurt over the HP thing. If the car performs EXACTLY how they said it would, who cares if it is 50 Hp or 800?

 

[CameronB]

I definitely agree. The S/X are supposed to be the premium flagship product yet they have essentially abandoned those cars. No meaningful upgrades in over a year. Removing options, dropping prices, etc. Give us bigger batteries and more features already.

Tesla has redefined how cars can be iterated upon more quickly than traditional model year cars from other manufacturers.

But as I see it, other manufacturers introduce a truly new model about every 5-7 years and then every year until the next complete revamp is often very mild and underwhelming. Sometimes this continues two or three years in a row.

Look at the changes made to the BMW 5-series (G30, introduced in 2017) from 2018 to 2019

"Advanced driver aids like forward-collision mitigation with automatic braking, blind spot monitoring and lane-departure alerts are now standard throughout the range. Previously a $300 option, Apple CarPlay is available through a free 12-month subscription (paid after 12-months). Front and rear parking sensors are also standard, while options bundles receive a shake-up. For example, the LED fog lamps have been removed from the standard equipment list and are now part of the M Sport package."

So as I read it there is NOTHING new. What there is, is equipment shuffling between packages (previous driver assistance package and parking sensors made standard while other previous standard equipment like LED fog lamps are put into optional packages.

In the last year Tesla has released a new battery/range option (Standard range - briefly), upgraded AP hardware to 2.5, added dash cam and sentry mode, navigate on autopilot and other changes. Yes, most are software. But that is the beauty of Tesla - the cars get better and more capable as time goes on.

If you were holding off buying a 2018 BMW waiting for a 2019 model, you got some option shakeups and probably a net-net lower cost for a well-equipped car. But you got nothing new. And, unlike Tesla, 3, 6 or 9 months from now, it won't do anything it doesn't already do.

 

[whitex]

I've never really understood the butt-hurt over the HP thing. If the car performs EXACTLY how they said it would, who cares if it is 50 Hp or 800?

It doesn't perform exactly as they said, since it doesn't perform like a 691hp car weighing 4700 lb. P100D does. You're hung up on the fact that the only performance metric given was 0-60mph with a 1ft rollout, but that is exactly why car companies publish other spec such as horsepower, torque, etc, so they don't have to publish 0-10, 0-20, 10-20, 20-30, 20-35, 20-40, 30-35, etc, etc.

Using your logic, VW never said the advertised max performance will occur without the emissions cheat mode, so they should be off the hook to lower the performance to meet emissions and not compensate the owners at all, right?

 

[Ormond]

Those other EVs are nice, but they will not “follow you around like a pet.” I don’t know about you, but I’m looking forward to a run around the block with my future Model Y.

 

[Krugerrand]

I turned in my leased Tesla and did not replace it with another one. I am driving a new ICE-powered SUV. I thought that I’d be happy, but I’m not. I miss driving my Model X. I miss driving an electric vehicle. I miss owning a Tesla.

See. Grass is rarely greener on the other side of the fence. The lack of appreciation for what Tesla has done is gobsmacking. Ungrateful, spoiled sots.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

See. Grass is rarely greener on the other side of the fence. The lack of appreciation for what Tesla has done is gobsmacking. Ungrateful, spoiled sots.

Yes Tesla is great, but they need a disclaimer that Elon is often full of *sugar* and can’t be taken for his word. After you get past that it’s a wonderful ownership experience. Some people just aren’t willing to get past that, and you shouldn’t expect them too either.

 

[PWlakewood]

Yes Tesla is great, but they need a disclaimer that Elon is often full of *sugar* and can’t be taken for his word. After you get past that it’s a wonderful ownership experience. Some people just aren’t willing to get past that, and you shouldn’t expect them too either.

Agree completely. Some people for some weird reason insist on taking everything Elon has said that "WOULD" happen as the gospel.

@whitex I'm curious to know what the actual HP numbers are if they are not matching what was advertised.

 

[Droschke]

... bought a car which had some rated horsepower while meeting emissions, then it turned out the car doesn't meet emissions so they refunded him the price of the car less $2K. I bought a 691hp car which turned out doesn't even come close, all I got was a BS excuse. Sorry, even after dieselgate, for which I do believe people should have been held responsible (and they are, like the VW CEO who was arrested last year), my experience with Tesla honesty has been worse ...

In one case, we are talking about the horsepower and FSD/Summon lack of delivery. In the other case, we have witnessed a major adverse public health impact to the millions around the world. I think the latter is worse.

 

[Chaserr]

In every case we are talking about companies criminally lying to customers to fraudulently take their money away without delivering what they were supposed to. I think apologizing for either crime is bad, and trying to tell someone it's OK for one of them to do what they did is worse.

 

[Ormond]

See. Grass is rarely greener on the other side of the fence. The lack of appreciation for what Tesla has done is gobsmacking. Ungrateful, spoiled sots.

I don’t even have a referral code anymore. My lease ended and I’m now an ungrateful spoiled sot in a Subaru, U.S.S.S.

 

[Buddyroe]

It doesn't perform exactly as they said, since it doesn't perform like a 691hp car weighing 4700 lb. P100D does. You're hung up on the fact that the only performance metric given was 0-60mph with a 1ft rollout, but that is exactly why car companies publish other spec such as horsepower, torque, etc, so they don't have to publish 0-10, 0-20, 10-20, 20-30, 20-35, 20-40, 30-35, etc, etc.

Using your logic, VW never said the advertised max performance will occur without the emissions cheat mode, so they should be off the hook to lower the performance to meet emissions and not compensate the owners at all, right?

I find it incredibly unbelievable that you equate VW's lying and cheating about emissions with Tesla lying about HP.

Things like HP and other performance metrics often can be presented multiple ways, and yes, they're a lot like statistics, they can be manipulated to look better than they really are. However, manipulating software to beat a federal law is on a TOTALLY different level. One potantially misrepresents the performance of the car, the other kills people. I can't see these as even remotely similar or on the same level.

JMO though. Obviously you can equate the 2 if you'd like.

 

[ucmndd]

I find it incredibly unbelievable that you equate VW's lying and cheating about emissions with Tesla lying about HP.

Things like HP and other performance metrics often can be presented multiple ways, and yes, they're a lot like statistics, they can be manipulated to look better than they really are. However, manipulating software to beat a federal law is on a TOTALLY different level. One potantially misrepresents the performance of the car, the other kills people. I can't see these as even remotely similar or on the same level.

JMO though. Obviously you can equate the 2 if you'd like.

Have to agree. Tesla’s horsepower problem was just incompetence, not malice. Had they designed a car that produced 691hp only when it detected it was on a dyno it might be a different story.

 

[PWlakewood]

I would agree if you got the car for free, but people paid for a product here, and OTA updates was one of the bigger selling points. It is to be considered a part of the package for the agreed price.

Fine print/contract/buyers agreement etc etc. Whatever you may call it there was language in there that talked about what you were getting