What about the model doesn’t work? Whether or not my car gets better over time through software, it is at least as functional as the day I bought it. If you can improve it through software, keep doing it as long as it makes sense, but when you stop providing updates (which is not the case btw) to some aspects of my experience because the hardware will no longer support it, my car is now as good as the last update made it. So a bonus. My Audi is as good as the day it was manufactured unless I pay Audi to download maps. My three year old 75 inch state of the art QLED (made up example) is as good as it was based on three firmware updates it received and then never updated again, and it is not as feature packed as my 2019 75 inch QLED which is more capable because the hardware evolved and it still receives firmware updates. In both cases, I can watch Ricky Gervais in After Life or football with a pretty perfect picture despite the fact that the older set is no longer being updated. My 2016 P90D was perfectly capable of driving from my house into Houston, on surface roads and highways. Strangely, my 2017 p100d is equally capable of making the same commute with some similar hardware and some dissimilar, and with some new features that the older car doesn’t have. And I get updates to make aspects of that commute easier. Doesn’t need perfect hardware or even similar hardware for that to happen. So.......? What am I missing?
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Losing interest in the Tesla Brand
- Thread starter P100DHG.
- Start date
So if I buy a tv for 2500 on January third and that same TV is being sold for 1800 on February 15 during a Super Bowl sale then I am being ripped off? If when I bought on Jan third I was told a feature would be available in a subsequent update if I paid 100 on delivery and that feature is included for free in the later 1800 price I am being ripped off? Not sure I follow the logic.
PWlakewood
Active Member
I never said it was ok to rip off customers, if I did please quote it for me so I can stuff foot in mouth but I dont need to worry because I never said that. I do understand how to run a business though and tough decision making is a huge part of the equation when you are dealing with peoples livelyhoods.
PWlakewood
Active Member
The logic is very simple. People pre-ordered products that were never delivered and barely exist, e.g. autopilot. Tesla changed the price and kept the difference. No reputable business would ever do this. Elon himself tweeted that he could not make existing customers whole - in other words, the man himself admitted that customers were shafted. What else is there to explain?
Go ahead and try to shout this one down @PWlakewood. I'm getting some popcorn ready.
⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️
Village Idiot
Tesla isn’t a charity. People lose jobs all the time. You collect some unemployment and start sending out your resume. It’s not Tesla’s fault if you didn’t financially prepare for being unemployed. I’ve been layed off quite a few times. I wonder if the people that think Tesla is wrong for downsizing their workforce are government workers.
PWlakewood
Active Member
...extra butter and salt please.
When you signed the paperwork did you read the fine print? Just curious.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Well, service centers are overwhelmed, so obviously the cars require service, or something about the car makes people bring them into service despite the delays. Of course, maybe you'd say they made service such an awesome and addictive experience, everyone is bringing their cars in just to experience Tesla service even if their cars don't need it, but I doubt it. So I'd say the model doesn't work, based on this simple result. If you want detailed examples of how Tesla require services most other cars don't, see my earlier post.
My 4 year old is not as functional. Some examples of missing functionality are performance/responsiveness, tiny UI buttons, more menu levels to get to the same function, unable to have camera and browser on at the same time, unable to have browser on top of the screen, no always on top icons which would show me current date (heck, the original software showed date on the bottom), etc, etc. (for many reasons why people hate v9, search this forum).
Then there is the vaporware they sell. My 4 year old car was sold to me as 691hp car, 2 years later got an excuse that the car is capable, but will never produce that power (would need 50% power boost to get there), but I could give Tesla $80K to upgrade to a car which will. That same 4 year old car was sold with blind spot monitoring, still waiting for it to work reliably - who knew parking sensors were not designed to work at highway speed, eh? People who paid for FSD in 2016, they don't even get the latest functionality (dashcam, sentry mode) and Tesla is not swapping out their hardware to keep them up to date, instead they have scaled down what FSD means (and lowered the price since it means so much less now) and will weasel out of that one the same way they did for other things, especially that for FSD they had some legal CYA sense to put in fine print stating that nobody knows when it's coming, so they can wait 100 years and still claim it's coming.
All that translates to unhappy customers, even the early adopters are unhappy, so no surprise the regular customers are pissed too.
Old hardware gets abandoned, my MCU1 browser hasn't worked in months (has occasional spirts of working for one trip, then dies again for days). Not a priority for Tesla to fix because it doesn't affect new sales of MCU2 cars. I could try to book a service appointment, but there is absolutely nothing service can do to fix Tesla software.
claudelaval
Member
Autopilot does not 'barely exist'. No reputable early adopter would have this mindset.
Sorry, that's not going to work here. As I stated a few pages back, I am not an early adopter. I came in as a regular customer - not an early adopter, not an investor, not a fanatic.
If you've been with Tesla for a while, you should know the troubled history of their AP project. The recent backtracking and revision of promises should be explanation enough, and it only scratches the surface. I won't bother getting into it, but go check out the Autonomous Vehicles forum for some very unkind technical reviews of what has been released (read, not delivered) to date. The well-known modder @wk057 has a particularly in-depth and accessible take on Navigate on Autopilot.
whitex
Well-Known Member
While I have no problems with Tesla changing their product prices around (and yes, I was personally affected a couple of times), but I will point out your analogy is incomplete. It would a lot closer if it said:
"I’ve been paying for 400 channel package since the very beginning of Directv, but they've only provided me 200 channels until today. They finally enabled additional 50 channels, so now I get 250 channels, but still obligated by contract to pay the original 400 channel price. The description for the package I pay for has changed from 400 channels to 250 channels, and its price to to new subscribers is half the price of what what I have to pay, only because I signed up when the description said it's a 400-channel bundle which was never delivered and never will. Ripped off?"
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whitex
Well-Known Member
Not exactly. Imagine you bought an 8K capable TV on January 3d for $2,500 and was told it's a 1080p TV until February when 8K will be enabled for you over the air. Then in February, your TV is upgraded to 4K and the company removes any mention of 8K feature from their website. At the same time, the very same TV is now advertised as a 4K TV and priced at $1,200. Does that make it more clear?
While some folks are upset about price changes, the real rip-off is that they paid for an FSD feature which has now been redefined to do a lot less. The price lowering is just a reflection of the fact that FSD will now do a lot less than originally advertised. An honest business would refund all FSD purchases to anyone who wants a refund, and allow them to purchase the new FSD if the new described features still appeal to the buyer.
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whitex
Well-Known Member
For those trying to find a good analogy of what just happened to FSD, a good example would be this: imagine a company selling people $1,000 diamond rings with delayed delivery, then, before you get your diamond rind, they start selling the same ring but with cubic zirconia instead of diamond for $200. No problem so far, until they inform anyone who pre-orderd the $1,000 ring that they'll only be getting the cubic zirconia ring too, but they will get early shipments.
Elon screwed up. He offered people $5K refunds on Model 3's where he shouldn't have; that was when they simply lowered prices on an existing product there was no bait and switch on what was sold vs. delivered. Now, when they have pulled an actual bait and switch, no refunds.
Then again, it's not like this was completely unforeseen - people like me have been predicting this for many months now. After buing into the P85D hp and AP1 hypes, I've said many times Tesla will weasel their way out of FSD by providing pathetic functionality (as compared to promised functionality), and here we are.
Elon screwed up. He offered people $5K refunds on Model 3's where he shouldn't have; that was when they simply lowered prices on an existing product there was no bait and switch on what was sold vs. delivered. Now, when they have pulled an actual bait and switch, no refunds.
Then again, it's not like this was completely unforeseen - people like me have been predicting this for many months now. After buing into the P85D hp and AP1 hypes, I've said many times Tesla will weasel their way out of FSD by providing pathetic functionality (as compared to promised functionality), and here we are.
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@whitex You missed only one part. There is no visibility that early FSD buyers will actually get early delivery of anything. Chances remain many of them will get things later than new buyers.
2.5 years of wait and not a single FSD package exclusive feature shipped yet — then retrofit price halved for new buyers. Great deal 2.5 years ago.
2.5 years of wait and not a single FSD package exclusive feature shipped yet — then retrofit price halved for new buyers. Great deal 2.5 years ago.
Uh, not quite. I buy a 4k tv for 2000 and they tell me that if I pay 100 extra I will get 8k as soon as it is available, subject to software and the FCC approving 8k broadcasts. In the interim, Samsung upgrades certain of the internals (local dimming from edge lit, new UI and apps, faster processor) and sells that TV for 1500, also with a promise for 8k as soon as it is available ( and in addition to the lower price it charges only 50 bucks for the upgrade). The new owner has a more capable set and it cost her less. I'm still entitled to 8k whenever it comes out, and in the meantime I get the benefit of some, but not all, of the new features, but I will get 8k when everyone gets 8k. This model is repeated on so many consumer electronic devices (I can pay for Denon to upgrade certain aspects of my 2YO receiver, but I can still buy a slightly newer receiver that has all that I paid to upgrade to and more for less money). Yes, people paid for FSD, but there was no promise when you bought it (per the express terms) that it would roll out in the first 6 months or first six years of ownership. There was always the possibility that it wouldn't happen during your period of ownership. I lease mine, and I could pay the 2k now in order to get it when it comes out. Say it happens with 6 months left in my lease, and I then make an appointment with the service center to get HW3 swap out which happens with 2 months left in my lease. In deciding to make that payment, I have to decide whether I am ok with the possibility of the scenario happening, or worse, that HW3 is only available after I turn in my car, in which case my 2k bought me nothing. That is not a ripoff. As Doug Stanhope would say, that makes me a gambling addict. Not trying to argue the nuance of what Elon suggested might/could/should happen, only the basic legal terms of one's agreement with Tesla. And as to the UI, there was no promise it would stay the same, or just the way you like it. Read your EULA. I did. Some love it, some hate it, some could care less.
@jdjeff88
Not really true.
There were several tangible promises in the Design Studio:
1) FSD would enable eight active cameras (Tesla later gave this free to everyone)
2) FSD retrofit price would be higher than pre-order price (Tesla later chose to lower this so pre-order advantage was lost)
3) Tesla Network ride-sharing details would come out in 2017
Also, in January 2017 Tesla’s CEO tweeted that FSD differentiating features would ”definitely” ship by July 2017.
These were very concrete things. 2.5 years later those who paid original FSD price or the later retrofit prices of $4000-5000 have received nothing.
This is not any usual case of earlyadopters paying more. There has been nothing to adopt. All you did was pay more and watch promises fly by.
Not really true.
There were several tangible promises in the Design Studio:
1) FSD would enable eight active cameras (Tesla later gave this free to everyone)
2) FSD retrofit price would be higher than pre-order price (Tesla later chose to lower this so pre-order advantage was lost)
3) Tesla Network ride-sharing details would come out in 2017
Also, in January 2017 Tesla’s CEO tweeted that FSD differentiating features would ”definitely” ship by July 2017.
These were very concrete things. 2.5 years later those who paid original FSD price or the later retrofit prices of $4000-5000 have received nothing.
This is not any usual case of earlyadopters paying more. There has been nothing to adopt. All you did was pay more and watch promises fly by.
PWlakewood
Active Member
and how many people actually read the fine print? My guess would be very very few.
PWlakewood
Active Member
so by your logic everything and anything that Elon Musk says is "concrete"?
