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Loss of Use and Diminished Value claims with Model 3?

vww12x

Member
Feb 22, 2014
48
23
Houston, TX
Got hit by another driver about two weeks ago, now the damage assessment part is over (for now), I am more focused on the insurance claim aspects regarding Loss of Use and Diminished Value, and felt it maybe more beneficial to open a new thread dedicating to the claims part.

For old post, please see:
Got hit by another car, how bad is this kind of damage?

Everything happened in Texas, which supports DV claims and Loss of Use claims (even if you did not actually rent a car). I understand every state is different, but the DV and Loss of Use can be tricky with Tesla compared to other vehicles so I thought it may be helpful to see if anyone experienced this before.

A few things I am interested in knowing to prepare for my claim, if anyone willing to share:
DV:
1. How much was the repair bill on your Model 3, and how much DV were you able to get?
2. Were there any basis for the DV amount? 3rd party DV appraiser?

Loss of Use:
1. How much Loss of Use per day were you able to get?
2. Was the number of days for Loss of Use based on actual vehicle out of service days or repair estimate days?
3. When did you bring up the Loss of Use claim?

Any other tips would be appreciated too! Hopefully we can gather enough information that can help other Model 3 owners with such issues in the future.
 

MyWifeandI

Member
Oct 31, 2014
43
11
Phoenix
How much was the repair bill on YOUR car?
That would help us to give an idea of your potential loss in value.
How much DV you will get depends on A) The quality of your appraisal - we used St. Lucie - and persistence on your part. You must be pro-active, in their face, do it all in writing - this was all great advice for us. Loss of use, you should be able to get at least $150/Day for however many days you were without your car.
 

dvguru

Member
Dec 2, 2013
9
20
Dallas
I'm a professional appraiser in Texas and have developed several dozen Loss of Market Value appraisals on Tesla vehicles.
I have been able to track the sales history of the vehicles that we've appraised to document any affect on the resale values.
The results range from 12% to 22% less when sold with accident history.
The comparable sales results are from major auto auction because the vehicles are inspected and announced if there was collision damage found and are selling to educated buyers.
Loss of use is a little but more complicated than, how much does my car rent for; loss of use and the case law that governs how one is to be remedied for this loss, due to tort, goes back to slave days.
FYI- In Texas if the person was damaged by the negligence of another, the damaged party gets to pick the remedy. In your case, it seems you had two choices, but you selected restoration: which is the amount of cash it would take to bring you back to the same place you were right before the collision related to the; cost of repair, loss of use and any loss of market value after repairs.
These damages are owed to the damaged party REGARDLESS OF THE COMPLETENESS OF THE REPAIR.
That pretty much the law in Texas. BUT, not reality.
If your dealing with an insurance company they do not have to follow any rules when adjusting a tort claim. If you and the persons carrier do not agree on the loss amount then you have to sue the person that hit you.
And only the proof you have to back up your claim will be considered, examined, and cross-examined in court. And the kicker is, your attorney fee's are not recoverable in a tort action.
So I suggest you find an appraiser in your area or at least state, that can go to court and testify as an expert in personal property appraisals, and can explain their methods and where the market value information come from and why its considered reliable.
A real expert in this area develops a statement of loss that reflects the actual cash value and entire amount of loss.
Do not waste your money on folks who claim to have a "formula" for assessing DV, it will not be accepted in court if it came to that.
The key to collection is identifying the evidence that your vehicle now has that it didn't have prior to the damage and repair, and how that evidence effects the marketability of the property. Unless the use of the vehicle is for other than normal transportation, comparable EV rentals other than Tesla will help support a higher value.
All tort claim are a matter of negotiation, so solid accurate information and physical evidence of how one can tell the vehicle has been in a wreck is imperative to getting to a fair settlement. Values are not chiseled in stone, they fluctuate in range so focus on what is needed to prove the loss than what the amount of loss when dealing with an insurer. The numbers are the numbers and so long as you have a real expert to inform you of them, then facts are the facts and no no one can change them.
 
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Dan203

Active Member
Jul 10, 2019
1,420
1,022
Northern Nevada
I'm a professional appraiser in Texas and have developed several dozen Loss of Market Value appraisals on Tesla vehicles.
I have been able to track the sales history of the vehicles that we've appraised to document any affect on the resale values.
The results range from 12% to 22% less when sold with accident history.
The comparable sales results are from major auto auction because the vehicles are inspected and announced if there was collision damage found and are selling to educated buyers.
Loss of use is a little but more complicated than, how much does my car rent for; loss of use and the case law that governs how one is to be remedied for this loss, due to tort, goes back to slave days.
FYI- In Texas if the person was damaged by the negligence of another, the damaged party gets to pick the remedy. In your case, it seems you had two choices, but you selected restoration: which is the amount of cash it would take to bring you back to the same place you were right before the collision related to the; cost of repair, loss of use and any loss of market value after repairs.
These damages are owed to the damaged party REGARDLESS OF THE COMPLETENESS OF THE REPAIR.
That pretty much the law in Texas. BUT, not reality.
If your dealing with an insurance company they do not have to follow any rules when adjusting a tort claim. If you and the persons carrier do not agree on the loss amount then you have to sue the person that hit you.
And only the proof you have to back up your claim will be considered, examined, and cross-examined in court. And the kicker is, your attorney fee's are not recoverable in a tort action.
So I suggest you find an appraiser in your area or at least state, that can go to court and testify as an expert in personal property appraisals, and can explain their methods and where the market value information come from and why its considered reliable.
A real expert in this area develops a statement of loss that reflects the actual cash value and entire amount of loss.
Do not waste your money on folks who claim to have a "formula" for assessing DV, it will not be accepted in court if it came to that.
The key to collection is identifying the evidence that your vehicle now has that it didn't have prior to the damage and repair, and how that evidence effects the marketability of the property. Unless the use of the vehicle is for other than normal transportation, comparable EV rentals other than Tesla will help support a higher value.
All tort claim are a matter of negotiation, so solid accurate information and physical evidence of how one can tell the vehicle has been in a wreck is imperative to getting to a fair settlement. Values are not chiseled in stone, they fluctuate in range so focus on what is needed to prove the loss than what the amount of loss when dealing with an insurer. The numbers are the numbers and so long as you have a real expert to inform you of them, then facts are the facts and no no one can change them.

Sounds like he should just hire you. Only a few hours from Houston to Dallas. :)
 
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vww12x

Member
Feb 22, 2014
48
23
Houston, TX
How much was the repair bill on YOUR car?
That would help us to give an idea of your potential loss in value.
How much DV you will get depends on A) The quality of your appraisal - we used St. Lucie - and persistence on your part. You must be pro-active, in their face, do it all in writing - this was all great advice for us. Loss of use, you should be able to get at least $150/Day for however many days you were without your car.

As of now, the repair estimate is $16K, this is a more in-depth estimate provided by a certified Tesla repair shop that is highly rated in the Houston area, so it should be fairly accurate. There will be repairs across the entire passenger side of vehicle, major repair in front, and minor in the rear. So bumper, fender, front and rear door, and quarter panel.

Some of the parts are on the way, but 5 doesn't have ETA, at least two are back ordered for sure.

If I may ask, where did you get the $150/day from?
 

vww12x

Member
Feb 22, 2014
48
23
Houston, TX
I'm a professional appraiser in Texas and have developed several dozen Loss of Market Value appraisals on Tesla vehicles.
I have been able to track the sales history of the vehicles that we've appraised to document any affect on the resale values.
The results range from 12% to 22% less when sold with accident history.
The comparable sales results are from major auto auction because the vehicles are inspected and announced if there was collision damage found and are selling to educated buyers.
Loss of use is a little but more complicated than, how much does my car rent for; loss of use and the case law that governs how one is to be remedied for this loss, due to tort, goes back to slave days.
FYI- In Texas if the person was damaged by the negligence of another, the damaged party gets to pick the remedy. In your case, it seems you had two choices, but you selected restoration: which is the amount of cash it would take to bring you back to the same place you were right before the collision related to the; cost of repair, loss of use and any loss of market value after repairs.
These damages are owed to the damaged party REGARDLESS OF THE COMPLETENESS OF THE REPAIR.
That pretty much the law in Texas. BUT, not reality.
If your dealing with an insurance company they do not have to follow any rules when adjusting a tort claim. If you and the persons carrier do not agree on the loss amount then you have to sue the person that hit you.
And only the proof you have to back up your claim will be considered, examined, and cross-examined in court. And the kicker is, your attorney fee's are not recoverable in a tort action.
So I suggest you find an appraiser in your area or at least state, that can go to court and testify as an expert in personal property appraisals, and can explain their methods and where the market value information come from and why its considered reliable.
A real expert in this area develops a statement of loss that reflects the actual cash value and entire amount of loss.
Do not waste your money on folks who claim to have a "formula" for assessing DV, it will not be accepted in court if it came to that.
The key to collection is identifying the evidence that your vehicle now has that it didn't have prior to the damage and repair, and how that evidence effects the marketability of the property. Unless the use of the vehicle is for other than normal transportation, comparable EV rentals other than Tesla will help support a higher value.
All tort claim are a matter of negotiation, so solid accurate information and physical evidence of how one can tell the vehicle has been in a wreck is imperative to getting to a fair settlement. Values are not chiseled in stone, they fluctuate in range so focus on what is needed to prove the loss than what the amount of loss when dealing with an insurer. The numbers are the numbers and so long as you have a real expert to inform you of them, then facts are the facts and no no one can change them.

Thank you for the information. Do you mind PMing some more information about your appraisal services or previous cases?

I am in Houston which is only a few hours drive from Dallas, and some others I talked to doesn't have much experience in Teslas, which is a little different from typical vehicles.

As for the vehicle condition, it was accident free prior to this, clear record, and barely over 1 year old (picked up car in early July 2018, got hit late July 2019), and about 18500 miles.

As far as rental value goes, based on Houston area Turo rate (did not find any other way to rent Model 3 here), the daily average for the 5 lowest priced Model 3 is about $125, and $103 for long term over a month (only used highly rated Turo operators to ensure the accuracy of market rate). That is before any Turo fees, tax, or other fees.
 

focher

Active Member
Oct 15, 2013
1,161
1,911
Bay Area
I also used Turo in a Loss of Use claim. I took the list of Model 3s, kept only ones that had been rented at least enough times to argue their prices were supported by the market, then created a median value. I ended up taking less, because as mentioned above, it’s a negotiation so you need to balance your time and effort versus getting the money.
 

OCR1

Active Member
Jan 28, 2018
3,764
4,279
Southern California
I would attempt to negotiate with the other party’s carrier for DV losses but realistically it makes no sense to hire attorneys and go to court to recover DV. The attorney’s fee and your time will be more than the amount you will win.
 

focher

Active Member
Oct 15, 2013
1,161
1,911
Bay Area
I would attempt to negotiate with the other party’s carrier for DV losses but realistically it makes no sense to hire attorneys and go to court to recover DV. The attorney’s fee and your time will be more than the amount you will win.
That’s why you use small claims. Yes, you’re capped if it comes to that but it’s better than nothing.
 
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VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,077
2,777
Maryland
That’s why you use small claims. Yes, you’re capped if it comes to that but it’s better than nothing.
This is my plan if the other party's insurance give me grief about my DV claim. I'll take them to small claims court with a legit appraisal in hand and the Toro information for loss of use.
 

vww12x

Member
Feb 22, 2014
48
23
Houston, TX
I also used Turo in a Loss of Use claim. I took the list of Model 3s, kept only ones that had been rented at least enough times to argue their prices were supported by the market, then created a median value. I ended up taking less, because as mentioned above, it’s a negotiation so you need to balance your time and effort versus getting the money.

Yes, all the ones I picked have been rented at least 5+ times, and the average of 5 Model 3s in local city should be fair enough.

Did you started on the LoU claim while your car was still in the shop or after the repair was finished? How many days of LoU did they pay you?

btw love the Cartman on big wheels with police uniform, that was from S1 or S2 of SP IIRC right?
 

vww12x

Member
Feb 22, 2014
48
23
Houston, TX
This is my plan if the other party's insurance give me grief about my DV claim. I'll take them to small claims court with a legit appraisal in hand and the Toro information for loss of use.

Small claims is a good idea, right now Texas limit for small claims is $10K and changing to $20K next year. Hopefully the DV+LoU combined won't be significantly more than that if the other insurance try to BS(not sure if I can submit one case for LoU and one case for DV if the combined value is too high for small claim), hopefully no major BS at all.
 

focher

Active Member
Oct 15, 2013
1,161
1,911
Bay Area
Did you started on the LoU claim while your car was still in the shop or after the repair was finished? How many days of LoU did they pay you?
I informed them in writing up front that I would be making both a Diminished Value and Loss of Use claim. That puts them on notice that you know of those rights. I also suggest putting a timeframe every time you communicate with them. For example, tell them that X days after the repairs are completed, you will be sending them a claim for the two items. Give them a specific time limit on how long they have to respond. If you ultimately don't get responses from them or they are no longer negotiating in good faith, make a final written demand with the inclusion that you will be filing a small claims action for the items on January Xth, 2020 because the the small claims limits will be increased as of the new year to support your claim. Insurance companies don't want small claims. It doesn't give them the tools they use, which is to drive up costs to the other party and to drag the time out.

btw love the Cartman on big wheels with police uniform, that was from S1 or S2 of SP IIRC right?
Thanks. I can't remember the exact season of that episode.
 
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vww12x

Member
Feb 22, 2014
48
23
Houston, TX
I informed them in writing up front that I would be making both a Diminished Value and Loss of Use claim. That puts them on notice that you know of those rights. I also suggest putting a timeframe every time you communicate with them. For example, tell them that X days after the repairs are completed, you will be sending them a claim for the two items. Give them a specific time limit on how long they have to respond. If you ultimately don't get responses from them or they are no longer negotiating in good faith, make a final written demand with the inclusion that you will be filing a small claims action for the items on January Xth, 2020 because the the small claims limits will be increased as of the new year to support your claim. Insurance companies don't want small claims. It doesn't give them the tools they use, which is to drive up costs to the other party and to drag the time out.

Thanks. I can't remember the exact season of that episode.

For Texas the max limit for small claim won't change to $20K till September 2020, but not a big issue since the statue of limitation is at least 2 years, and it will still be well within the limitation if I needed to wait for the limit change.

Both Texas state law and case law supported DV and LoU in the past, too. May need to do some more research if it come to that.


Got bored the other day so I made an Excel sheet to calculate the weighted average of Turo Tesla 3 cost, which I believe is a fair tool when negotiating for the LoU or small claim lawsuit.

Basically there are 8 operators on Turo, in my area, that have established trips for their Model 3 rental offering. There are more operators without trips but those were excluded as their rental offering does not have proven market support.

Among the 8 operators, total of 178 trips were taken based on Turo webpage information.

I used ('# of trips offered by operator A' / 'total trips offered which is 178) * 'price of operator A charges', then add all of them together to get the weighted average cost of all Tesla Model 3s in my area.

Another variant was to exclude the highest and lowest priced operators and only use the others to established a more normalized weighted average price.

With the 8 operator weighted average method, daily rental cost of Model 3, based on monthly rental rate, is about $141 before other fees. With the 6 operator weighted average method, it goes down to $104. Average of the 2 method is $123.:rolleyes:
 

focher

Active Member
Oct 15, 2013
1,161
1,911
Bay Area
With the 8 operator weighted average method, daily rental cost of Model 3, based on monthly rental rate, is about $141 before other fees. With the 6 operator weighted average method, it goes down to $104. Average of the 2 method is $123.:rolleyes:
I like it. Their insurance company will have a hard time arguing a lower number.
 

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