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Lost Confidence in Tesla / Failure to start

Discussion in 'Model S: User Interface' started by Bonanza313, Oct 12, 2016.

  1. Bonanza313

    Bonanza313 Member

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    Okay, first off, let it be known that I had drunk the Tesla Kool-aid and proudly announced to anyone who would listen that my 2015 P90D was the real "ultimate driving machine" until this Monday. I told everyone that my Tesla was smarter, safer, quicker, and cheaper to operate than any ICE vehicle.

    My trouble began a couple of weeks ago, on the second day after installing 8.0. Similar to others, the radio function was irritating and had trouble getting signals, but not so terrible that I would suspect foul software. Los Angeles was experiencing very hot weather, and on the way to work, the main screen was rebooting every two minutes, so after about four of these episodes enduring the shutdown of the Climate system, I "soft-booted" using the two steering wheel push wheels. This seemed to fix the problem for the remaining hour of commute (LA, of course,) but I stopped by the Lexus service center and they indicated that I should do two more soft boots within the next 48 hours, which I dutifully did.

    The problem was seemingly solved, but on Monday morning, I drove down to meet my crews early in the morning with the normal issues regarding 8.0 detailed by others regarding the Autopilot and radio peeves, and for the only the second time in over a year of driving, it started the reboot issue. I again dutifully soft-booted, and met my crews, finished the meeting and entered the vehicle to head back to the office. The main screen came up, but the dash displayed a message that I should press the brake after it indicated the car was "On". Of course, after approximately four minutes of waiting, I realized that it was in "never-never land", so I soft-booted, but again it wouldn't start for another minute and then finally cleared. Now five minutes may not seem like a long time, but if your $130K car doesn't start for no apparent reason, it seems like an eternity.

    On the way back to work, I called the Service Center and inquired about my problem, and they indicated to me that Hurricane Matthew had taken down a server, and they had issues with most of the fleet with similar problems. It is now apparent to me that a natural disaster or malicious hacker can take out the entire fleet and there is virtually nothing we can do about it. I was also told that a software update addressing this issue would be sent out, hopefully, by the end of the week. I have also determined that the Internet reception sucks now, and I don't get any more than two bars on the LTE indication, no matter where I am.

    Why don't we have a manual override so we can have control of the car to use or turn off the drive function in this event? For myself, I am now skeptical that any time I get in the car, all of this wonderfulness will be taken away like a computer re-booting, or a smartphone with exploding batteries. After this experience, I just don't have the same feeling about a "smart car" and surrendering complete control to the HAL 9000. If a hacker takes over my vehicle and commands it to go 150 miles per hour, I don't even have a "kill" switch, and in the case of natural disaster and loss of the Internet, better get a scooter.
     
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  2. cranker2k

    cranker2k Member

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    First of all, sorry for your troubles. Secondly regarding dependency on server, I am with you - WOW! That should NEVER happen as car should function normally without any dependency on things over the network. Obviously either 1) software QA group did not test the scenario where network/server connectivity is spotty or down, or 2) this is by design (which is real bad).

    There definitely need to be big override button, not for dealing with down server, but to ensure nothing from the 'net can control the car.
     
  3. Pdub2015

    Pdub2015 Member

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    You said you stopped by the Lexus service center? They service Teslas now?
     
  4. Bonanza313

    Bonanza313 Member

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    Oops, it was the Tesla Service Center at Van Nuys. Used to have a Lexus.
     
  5. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Member

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    You do have a kill switch, the brakes can't be electronically over-ridden.
     
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  6. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Wait a minute...I don't buy that story. First of all, if there were "issues with most of the fleet" TMC would be swamped with reports of problems like you describe. Second of all, I don't believe that Tesla has a server farm on rather southeast coast of the US, and even if they did, Matthew went through that area days ago.

    The story you say you were told isn't credible.
     
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  7. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    I feel for you man, and I was moved to write this poem.

    Oh wicked swing!
    Ultimate driving machine
    Now parking lot queen
    In one fell swoop
    Your smile turns
    To a droop!

    - ode to ess
     
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  8. richrootes

    richrootes Member

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    So you signed up just to tell everyone that?

    I smell a rat

    Ode to Bonanza
     
  9. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    #9 scottm, Oct 13, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
    About your fears of hacking... valid fears. A major security update went out just prior to v8 rollout, which included software signature signing using a master certificate at Tesla. So at least it's going to be a whole lot harder for mal-code to run on the car..

    Once the car is driving, complete loss of the center console will not affect your ability to operate the fundamentals of the car. Steering, brakes, speed. The real and critical driving electronics are not in that computer. There are so many safeties and redundancy built into the critical systems that you'll have control. Notice that you can be rebooting the instrument cluster and the center console at the same time, and have a completely 'dark' car... but still be able to steer, accelerate and stop.

    My older generation S has a feature that I am truly appreciative to have. Standard hydraulic brakes with vacuum boost. In other words, the brake pedal pressure exerts proportional force on pads to brake discs. Even with zero electricity in the car, I can stop. If I lose vac boost I can still stop, by pressing harder. If I lose a brake line, I can still stop with the other three lines intact. Newer Model S have electrically actuated brakes, I'll let you stew about that.
     
  10. Lump

    Lump Active Member

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    Over the last couple of weeks owners did in fact report wide spread MCU repeating rebooting, 3G-LTE outages are nothing new to Tesla.

    Defending Tesla again??? Jeeze.
     
  11. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    I am calling into question something the OP posted, which was:
    "Taken down a server" makes no sense and has nothing to do with "3G-LTE outages" you mentioned, which of course occurred in areas hard hit by Matthew. But note that the OP is in California, which was not effected by that hurricane.

    The story the OP says he was told by "the Service Center" makes no sense and would not explain the issue he is having.
     
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  12. Bonanza313

    Bonanza313 Member

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    I had actually signed up for this forum last year before I took delivery the first week of September, but don't really spend much time here, as I am active in the aviation community and running my business. I am nothing but a specialty contractor with 130,000 bones invested in the what I consider the car of the future, and I have related the experience exactly as it happened, simply posting to provide my emotional response and to see if others were in fact having the same problem. I know that any criticism of Tesla on these forums elicits a chorus of troll-baiting accusations, but hopefully, someone at Tesla in the engineering department is reviewing and adapting the user interface as necessary.

    The lesson here is not I am trying to bring Tesla down, but that I am concerned about the car's interface to the Internet being unstable, especially after the 8.0 update. All of us are being increasingly dependent on the Internet, but I think that independent transportation in the event of emergency is important, and it may be that our Model S doesn't work. I also indicated that the car did start after the soft boot, so I don't know what the true scenario is when the car loses the internet connection. I frequently use the Navigation function, although I am convinced that normal Google Maps is much smarter and more accurate with travel times here in the LA Basin. I would certainly like to know about the relationship of the driving dynamics to the MCU data connection, so that we can properly command our vehicle according to our wishes. I have an airplane, and we have the ability to "kill" the autopilot in the event of malfunction, both yoke mounted disconnect and the extreme method of pulling the circuit breaker. None of that exists in the Model S, and this event has made me think that we need a "Manual" analog switch to be able to drive the car with basic functions until the problems with the computer are worked out. I talked to the Sales staff at the Topanga store, but they had no idea of any issue and are generally uninformed about technical questions.

    Listen, all of us have a big investment in the success of Tesla. This kind of problem is something that could mushroom into a loss of confidence both in electric and autonomous vehicles, so I thought I would start a thread. Unfortunately, we don't have any official Tesla engineering experts that weigh in on this forum to correct misinformation or indicate a direction of the company to solve problems. With my limited search of the site, it seems as if there are many of us struggling with bugs in the 8.0 update. Up until two weeks ago, I didn't have a single complaint about my "Baby Tes", but now I do. I hope you don't.
     
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  13. Lump

    Lump Active Member

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  14. Soolim

    Soolim Member

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    Which v8 software version do you have at this time?
     
  15. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    Not exactly. Newer Model Ss and all Xs have an electric brake booster, yes.

    The brakes are still a hydraulic dual master system like every other car, with force proportional to the force applied to the pedal and the ability to stop on two wheels after a brake line fails (you actually lose that whole circuit, you won't be stopping on three wheels as you apparently thought, but only threw two that are on the other circuit.)

    The electric booster applies force directly to the brake pedal just like you do - in fact, under Autopilot I can feel the car pull the pedal down (and through the pedal to the master cylinder and hydraulic system like any other car.)
     
  16. Bonanza313

    Bonanza313 Member

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    With respect to the veracity of the Hurricane Matthew server story which struck me as somewhat unlikely also, it should be noted that I named the Van Nuys Service Center that I talked to on Monday afternoon, 10/10/2016, who did say that they expected an update to be available soon, maybe by the end of this week. I cannot explain why I never get any more than two bars on the Internet connection, but I never paid much attention prior to the 8.0 update and these issues. I would like the opportunity to learn more about the MCU interface with an official factory training for advanced users, like we get for our airplanes and recurrent training. I would definitely pay for this. I went to the first Tesla Owners event at the Topanga Mall, but it was poorly organized and nothing more than a few folks milling around and nothing like a Ferrari or Porsche owners club event.

    In the spirit of full disclosure, I also have another $1000 invested in Tesla for a Model 3 reservation, but my wife doesn't think it is smart to have two electric vehicles in the family, and now I have to grudgingly admit she is probably right. I have no stock in Tesla, but I do watch the price on my smart phone stock market listings. My P90D doesn't have the moonroof, so I don't know if it is comprised for the Internet antenna. I would say this though, that my original statement that my confidence is shaken is true for me, and I am not signing up to be on the SpaceX trip to Mars.
     
  17. Bonanza313

    Bonanza313 Member

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    V 8.0, 2.36.108.

    I understand that a soft boot doesn't disable the car during operation, so would that also work to override the MCU in the "doomsday" event of a hacker takeover that commands the Autopilot to engage and accelerate to 150 miles per hour? I haven't tried to use Autopilot during a soft boot. I doubt that simply "stomping" on the brakes would overcome the P90D motors that have been maliciously commanded to go to max power. Again, I understand that this is very unlikely and difficult to accomplish by any hacker, but perhaps this is the manual override option I am thinking we need. My only point is that we in aviation we train for unlikely scenarios because our lives are at stake, and as we have learned in the dawn of autonomous vehicles, so of this doomsday stuff needs to be worked out before the camera mistakes a truck for a sunset.
     
  18. bro1999

    bro1999 Member

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    I usually laugh at the tinfoil hat crowd and their paranoia about bogus reports, but I smell something, and it ain't brownies! Still brown though. o_O
     
  19. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    Again you show your typical pattern of attacking those critical of Tesla or Elon Musk. You really should stop blaming the victim. Your continued campaign to negatively reinforce every single critical posting is getting old and tiresome. Tesla has a lot of problems, especially with its software. The fact that something on the server side can cause spontaneous reboots in the fleet - which it did to my car as well that day - is a completely boneheaded disaster. It's already been documented why the cars were rebooting shortly after rolling out 8.0. That is not in question. Yet you continue to berate those who come here to express frustration with a vehicle that, on many levels, doesn't work as expected for its owners or frustrates them whenever software features are changed for no reason.

    Maybe you should try to be helpful rather than casting yourself as the forum police.
     
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  20. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

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    Actually both the brake and accelerator pedal are wired directly to the rear invertor to control acceleration. Pressing the brake pedal will actually stop the acceleration all together. (Unless the hacker managed to reprogram the invertor so that it doesn't do that check. But with the new digital signatures on firmware that should be highly unlikely.)

    You can try this by pressing both pedals at the same time and seeing what happens. (And Autopilot continues to work just fine while the MCU is rebooted.)
     

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