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Low Rolling Resistance (LRR) tires

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by joshuaeven, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. joshuaeven

    joshuaeven Member

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    I would've thought the 19" option would have included LRR tires, as it seems to be the more 'eco' choice. Anyone have or planning to switch to LRR tires? Hypothetical range/efficiency increases?
     
  2. mnx

    mnx 2013 P85

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    Down the road I think it's an excellent idea. LRR tires with aero wheel covers would be pretty awesome for road tripping.
     
  3. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Certainly the second set will be LRR tires. As to how much you might gain, I've had differences as high as 20 mpg between tires. The big problem is that there is no real way for the consumer to compare rolling resistance on various tires except by running them. Tire manufacturers fought hard to not have rolling resistance as part of the UTQG rating system--and they won to the detriment of consumers. This means that one manufacturer's standard tire might have less rolling resistance than another manufacturer's LRR tire. In addition, a tire in a different size may have different rolling resistance values. That is not just the difference due to the tire size but because the manufacturer tweaked a particular size based on the car they thought it was likely to be going on.
     
  4. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    This is probably not the smartest question but does having a tire with a very low rolling resistance start to affect safety (traction) at some point?
     
  5. GSP

    GSP Member

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    #5 GSP, Jan 10, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
    The GoodYear Assurance FuelMax all season LLR tires on my car have good grip. With 49/51% weight distribution, it stops on a dime.

    Goodyear worked very hard to make a LLR tire with minimal performance compromises. Too bad they are not available in 19" size. Maybe they will be in the future. It would be great if Tesla would send GoodYear a RFQ to supply LLR tires for their 19" wheels.

    GSP

    Co-Development of Chevy Volt Tire Properties to Balance Performance and Electric Vehicle Range
     
  6. Ceilidh

    Ceilidh Member

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    I think that by definition a LRR tire is less safe than a regular tire.

    LRR = less friction

    Less Friction = less grip

    less grip = less safe

    Therefore, in geometric proof style, we have shown that LRR = less safe

    At least, that's how my brain wraps around it. If I am wrong, perhaps someone can school me, but I think that LRR tires will always incorporate a performance compromise to benefit the eco side of things.

    Cheers.
     
  7. meloccom

    meloccom Moderator Aus/NZ

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    Three Letter Acronym (TLA)
    In General, etiquette suggests that when using TLA's that you define what they mean the first time you use them in a post or document, as demonstrated in the above line.
    It took me a few minutes to figure out the LRR stood for Low Rolling Resistance!
    I work in the IT Industry where TLA's are endemic so it's a pet peeve.
    Back to normal programming. :smile:
     
  8. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Fixed:smile:
     
  9. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

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    I'll be putting Michelin Primacy MXM4's on my 19" wheels. They are available at Tire Rack and have received excellent reviews, especially for handling in wet weather and low road noise. Seem ideal for Model S. Now if only they'd make them in 21" size.
     
  10. nrcooled

    nrcooled P#8946 VIN 03225

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    Once winter is over I am looking forward to coupling LRR Tires with light-weight wheels. Moving to a LRR plus a lighter wheel should increase efficiency with the side benefit of having better performance. Shaving 10lbs of unsprung weight per corner and coupling it with new LRR rubber should be the holy-grail of the Model S.

    Hopefully my logic holds up as this won't be a cheap endeavor.
     
  11. mnx

    mnx 2013 P85

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    Yeah it's too bad there aren't any lightweight wheels that are cheap. Those O.Z. Superforgiata's are really expensive!

    Does anyone know what one of the 19" Tesla rims weighs?

     
  12. nrcooled

    nrcooled P#8946 VIN 03225

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    I plan take one off and weight it this weekend to validate my cost benefit ratio. The wheels that I am looking at currently retain the "stock" look while weighing 22 lbs per wheel for 20s. I will then calulate the weight of the tires that I plan to put on and compare it to the total weight of the wheel plus tire of the stock 19s.

    I will report back with results.
     
  13. bluetinc

    bluetinc Member

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    All,

    I went ahead and had a set of 19" wheels put on my S with the Bridgestone Turanza Serenity Plus LRR tires put on my S when I was at Menlo park near the beginning of my road trip. I took some numbers at the time for the difference between the 21" set and the 19" ones, but there are too many variables that played into the numbers (temperature, rain, snow, pavement) that I can't give any great info on exactly how much it helped, but it did help a LOT. Once my 21" wheels get shipped out here, I'll do some more careful measurements with both to come up with a reproducible difference for everyone.

    As for traction, the LRR's have very good traction, but it's not nearly what the summer only tires had. I can regularly get traction control to come on when doing 0-30 sprints now (I have the P85). All in all, I've very happy with them, but I'm looking forward to the warmer weather and putting the 21"'s back on!

    Peter
     
  14. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    You weren't able to do that with the 21" wheels, especially in the cold?
     
  15. bluetinc

    bluetinc Member

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    It's hard to say how cold it would have to be to see the same thing. The temps varied between 25 and 70 F when I had the 21"s on, and I just picked up the car on roads I wasn't familiar with so I was not nearly as liberal with the throttle as I am now that I'm home. All that said, it seemed fairly hard to get the 21"s to let go when doing a strait line full throttle start, and it seems very easy on the Bridgestones.

    Peter
     
  16. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Older LRR tires did have a problem with traction (the ones on the VW TDI would skid on dry pavement if you braked even moderately hard). The newer LRR tread compounds aren't a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    LRR doesn't necessarily mean less friction (although older style LRR tires did it that way). There are several aspects to making an LRR tire:

    1. Weight. (Obviously lighter is better)

    2. Casing construction. (Making the casing so that the tread flexes easily when going into and out of the contact patch reduces energy waste)

    3. Tread compound. (Having a tread compound that recovers energy when flexed is a key component).

    In 2010 most tire companies released tires that had low rolling resistance and high traction values (not performance tire sticky, but not less sticky than standard tires). Nokian eNTYRE, Yokohama dbEspec, Bridgestone Ecopia, and Michelin Energy (recent) are examples. This happened because of an advance in tread compounds.
     
    • Informative x 1
  17. TurboFroggy

    TurboFroggy Member

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    I am actually considering the same kind of setup, 19" with Michelin MXM4's that are LRR. I was planning on buying my P85 with 21" wheels/tires then selling those and buying a set of BBS 19" wheels and the Michelin's then selling the 21" tire/wheel set. TireRack Tesla LRR 19"
     
  18. nrcooled

    nrcooled P#8946 VIN 03225

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    The weight of the wheel w/o tire is 13.75 kg

    The weight of the tire is 27 lbs
     
    • Informative x 1
  19. Chgd Up

    Chgd Up Sig 1004

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    I purchased a set of 19's from Tesla and had the Michelin Green X MXM4's installed for this winter. The tires are great in the rain and ride and handling are good. I did some energy consumption runs also with aero wheel covers. Some benefit over the Conti 21's but maybe not as much as I thought. I saw much more from the wheel covers.

    You can see some pictures and data here:

    Aero wheels - Page 42
     

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