Lowering and adjusting rake on 2024 M3P

[GreenHokie]

Hello TMC community. I’m looking for some feedback from suspension aficionados out there, who also own a 2024 M3P.
As shown in the attached photo, my particular vehicle has a positive rake of 11mm (7/16”) with the stock suspension/springs and 15mm spacers added on the front and rear. I’ve driven my vehicle about 1300 miles, so I think everything should be mostly settled by now. Currently, the front has a 2-finger gap, while the rear has a 3-finger gap.

Of course, I want to lower the vehicle to reduce the wheel gaps a little more, while also leveling things out a bit. However, I’m not sure how I should proceed. So, here are some unknowns that I’m trying to answer and receive feedback:

1. Do I have a positive rake because Tesla’s rear springs are a little taller than their front springs? Or, is my positive rake due to other variables/components in the stock suspension?
A. If the positive rake is caused Tesla’s springs being different heights, then I can simply purchase a set of 4 aftermarket springs (all with the same height) and that alone should correct the rake.
B. If the positive rake is caused by other suspension components (and not the stock springs), then I will need to purchase/use two different sets of springs to correct the rake. In other words, I would buy rear springs that are slightly shorter than the front springs. Yes, I realize springs are sold in sets of 4. So, I would need to purchase a total of 8 springs. Cost is not a concern.

2. My assumption is two different spring heights will be required to reduce or eliminate my rake. So, I am currently looking at springs from AST. AST offers a set of springs with an advertised 25mm drop and another set with an advertised 30mm drop. So, I am thinking of putting their 30mm drop springs on the rear and 25 mm drop springs on the front. This should reduce my positive rake to a more desirable/acceptable level, while also giving me the overall drop/look that I want. Any suspension experts out there think this is a bad idea/approach (to use/mix slightly different spring heights from front to rear) given my situation? I’m guessing the spring rates on the AST 25mm are very similar (or perhaps practically the same) as the AST 30mm springs. So, for my particular driving habits (100% normal street driving, no autocross, no track use), I’m guessing there won’t be any noticeable negative/unexpected handling issues with mixing spring heights.

To be fully transparent, I have discussed this with (and received some advice from) one of the pros/vendors who frequently posts & contributes to this forum. While I appreciate (and certainly do not doubt) the advice/feedback that I received from this pro, I would like to hear the opinions of other suspension enthusiasts/experts out there.

Thanks and look forward to hearing your thoughts…

 

[Jangy]

I believe I know the vendor. They have lots of experience with these cars and he has a legit passion.

My car is very similar to yours. It sat "taller" in the front at 4 miles but has settled into the same dimensions as yours after 1500 miles.

A question about your journey to root-cause the "issue". What is your aim? What are you trying to do beyond have a flat car? Nobody here has played with this new suspension enough to have the answers you seek. We're all learning as different folks become the test bunnies. If you want to be analytical about it, put it on scales to see how the current balance is. Then you can decide how to modify it to suit your USE needs. There is no ideal setup or one that is generic for all.

You can even out the level in multiple ways. An easy way is just lower the rear more. But that can mess with the drivability (balance) of the car). If you do that, you may need to tweak with sway bars afterwards to balance the car back out. Tuning is a never-ending rabbit hole unless you are specific to the job. To properly balance the car, you will want to switch to adjustable coilovers. That is a way to play with the corners and yet keep the springs rated.

 

[Clivew]

You do realise that Tesla added rake on the M3P for a reason, it wasn't by accident. Rake is added to a car to help rotation, and with the larger diameter rear anti-roll bar that is on the 2024 M3P, Tesla were obviously mitigating the understeer balance caused by a staggered tyre set-up.

 

[Jangy]

You do realise that Tesla added rake on the M3P for a reason, it wasn't by accident. Rake is added to a car to help rotation, and with the larger diameter rear anti-roll bar that is on the 2024 M3P, Tesla were obviously mitigating the understeer balance caused by a staggered tyre set-up.

Agreed. And it plays into the aerodynamics of the car. The last thing you'd want is to push more air under it

 

[GreenHokie]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Yes, I realize Tesla intentionally added positive rake to this vehicle for a good reason. I probably should have been a little more clear with some of my previous comments. I’m not really looking to completely level my vehicle (and have zero rake). Some positive rake is fine. What I’m trying to do is reduce the rake a little, so that when the vehicle is lowered, I won’t see/notice a significant difference in wheel gap in the front vs the rear. Right now (at stock height), the positive rake of 11mm is hardly noticeable and not objectionable. However, if I simply lower the vehicle with springs that all have the exact same drop, then I think that 11mm positive rake will remain and then it will become A LOT more noticeable and probably look a little funny… at least to me.

So, the look/result I’m after is: to have just under a 2-finger gap in the front and just over a 2-finger gap in the rear.
I think I can accomplish this (a mild drop while reducing some of the positive rake) by installing AST’s 30mm drop springs in the rear and AST’s 25mm drop springs in the front. Other than the mentioned slight difference in heights/drop, I believe both of these AST progressive springs will have practically the same spring rates. Therefore, for casual street use/driving, I don’t think I will notice/feel any difference in handling & driving dynamics compared to the current stock set-up. Let me know if you think my logic/opinion is completely off-base and if so why.

Worse case, the look and handling are not what I expected. In which case, I would remove the AST springs, return everything to stock and be out the $770 that I would have spent for these two sets of AST (8) springs. No big deal as far as I’m concerned…

 

[E90alex]

I don’t think you want to mix and match different sets of springs as they were designed to work together as a set. Clearly these companies maintained the rake with their springs for a reason.

If you want adjustability you need coilovers.

 

[Jangy]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Yes, I realize Tesla intentionally added positive rake to this vehicle for a good reason. I probably should have been a little more clear with some of my previous comments. I’m not really looking to completely level my vehicle (and have zero rake). Some positive rake is fine. What I’m trying to do is reduce the rake a little, so that when the vehicle is lowered, I won’t see/notice a significant difference in wheel gap in the front vs the rear. Right now (at stock height), the positive rake of 11mm is hardly noticeable and not objectionable. However, if I simply lower the vehicle with springs that all have the exact same drop, then I think that 11mm positive rake will remain and then it will become A LOT more noticeable and probably look a little funny… at least to me.

So, the look/result I’m after is: to have just under a 2-finger gap in the front and just over a 2-finger gap in the rear.
I think I can accomplish this (a mild drop while reducing some of the positive rake) by installing AST’s 30mm drop springs in the rear and AST’s 25mm drop springs in the front. Other than the mentioned slight difference in heights/drop, I believe both of these AST progressive springs will have practically the same spring rates. Therefore, for casual street use/driving, I don’t think I will notice/feel any difference in handling & driving dynamics compared to the current stock set-up. Let me know if you think my logic/opinion is completely off-base and if so why.

Worse case, the look and handling are not what I expected. In which case, I would remove the AST springs, return everything to stock and be out the $770 that I would have spent for these two sets of AST (8) springs. No big deal as far as I’m concerned…

I think you are mixing both worlds. The reason that Tesla adds rake is for driveability. If you believe that then you should acknowledge that chasing "looks" when tuning a car ALWAYS adversely impacts the drive. Life is a compromise, and you may not care. But things like adding progressive springs does NOT keep the ride the same. Also keep in mind that test fit cars eventually turn to trash. Don't assume that playing with it is just $700 lost. You could and likely will get some damage on the car too. Again, you may not care. But if you're doing all of this for looks, then make sure it stays pristine. Otherwise, I don't have an issue with mixing springs.

 

[Jangy]

I don’t think you want to mix and match different sets of springs as they were designed to work together as a set. Clearly these companies maintained the rake with their springs for a reason.

If you want adjustability you need coilovers.

+1 for coilovers if you want to tweak the corners

 

[dsgerbc]

Can anybody get to actual alignment specs in the service manual for '24+? I want to look what actual rake is there by default when measured at the battery.
Pre-revision cars had ~7mm of rake +- a few. The new service manual gives me an infinite loop of cross-links w/o actually showing specs.

 

[Jangy]

Can anybody get to actual alignment specs in the service manual for '24+? I want to look what actual rake is there by default when measured at the battery.
Pre-revision cars had ~7mm of rake +- a few. The new service manual gives me an infinite loop of cross-links w/o actually showing specs.

I have a 2023 and 2024 MP3 and they sit nearly identically in rake. Measured from the ground to the fender. I have also measured from the ground to the lift points under the car. I get about 8mm difference. The '24 is lower, like the '21 MP3.

This is for the 2024+ Model 3
Wheel Alignment (tesla.com)

 

[dsgerbc]

I have a 2023 and 2024 MP3 and they sit nearly identically in rake. Measured from the ground to the fender. I have also measured from the ground to the lift points under the car. I get about 8mm difference. The '24 is lower, like the '21 MP3.

This is for the 2024+ Model 3
Wheel Alignment (tesla.com)

Thanks. Didn't think of looking the technical data section.

You're supposed to measure from the ground to battery 3 inches inside from the lift points.
Fender to ground depends on tire size, pressures, etc. And the rear wheel well top is generally higher to begin with.

Per this, '24 has less rake than '23 and earlier cars.

 

[GreenHokie]

Thanks again, guys. Appreciate all the opinions. Based on some additional discussions I’ve had with local suspension pros in my area, I’m 100% confident mixing springs like the way I mentioned in my above post, will not adversely affect the handling, drivability, or safety of the vehicle. And, it certainly will NOT damage or harm the vehicle in any way, according to these pros. The consensus is the absolute worst that could happen with mixing these particular springs is the vehicle might feel/respond a little differently than I’m used to. They all agreed that the vehicle is certainly not going to become unpredictable or unsafe to drive as far as handling & response is concerned.

These pros also brought up a good point about both the AST 30mm drop and 25mm drop springs that I’m considering using… and that is, both of these springs have already been used, tested & proven to work well with Tesla stock dampers. So, we all know they can and do work well in all variants of the Model 3.
Of course, what is unknown/untested is what difference in handling/feel you might have when you mix these two slightly different spring heights. As expected, these pros also agree that in general, it is not a good idea to mix spring heights unless they have been engineered and tested to work well together. But, off the record, all the pros I spoke to felt mixing these particular AST 25 and 30 mm springs will likely be fine. Of course, for liability reasons, they would not recommend mixing springs to anyone.

So, I feel pretty comfortable giving this a shot. I’ll buy both sets of AST springs (four 30mm drop and four 25mm drop) and mix them to see if it produces the look I’m after. If not or in the highly unlikely event that the resulting handling/drivability is not what I expect, then I’ll just change my set-up to using the same springs all-around (i.e. either 30mm drop all around or 25mm drop all around).

Let the fun begin!!

 

[DNAPoPo]

Subbed, looking forward to results. I was thinking of trying H&R springs.

 

[GreenHokie]

Subbed, looking forward to results. I was thinking of trying H&R springs.

The folks at EAS (European Auto Source) recently sent me photos of both the H&R and Eibach springs installed on a 2024 M3P.
See attached links. I hope EAS does not mind me reposting their links/photos.
Both are just a tad too low for my taste, but would probably appeal to most who are looking to lower their vehicle.
I’m still leaning towards the AST springs because they offer multiple lowering heights/options.

Note, it may be difficult to see from the attached photos, but EAS told me that the rear ended up sitting just slightly lower with the Eibach’s compared to the H&R’s. It sort of appears that using the Eibach’s resulted in an ever so slight negative rake, which I would not like. But, that (the appearance of a negative rake) could be just how I’m seeing that particular photo and may not actually be present.

Hard to make an informed decision based on just these photos, but to me the H&R’s resulted in a better overall look/stance. I have no idea how either one performs/rides, but it sounds like Tesla’s stock adaptive dampers does a good job of adjusting to & pairing with the various aftermarket springs that are out there (Unplugged, H&R, Eibach, AST, etc…).


Here is the Eibachs:
2024 Tesla Model 3 - Eibach Pro-Kit Springs, Eibach Swaybars

Here is the H&R:
2024 Tesla Model 3 - H&R Sport Lowering Springs

 

[DNAPoPo]

The folks at EAS (European Auto Source) recently sent me photos of both the H&R and Eibach springs installed on a 2024 M3P.
See attached links. I hope EAS does not mind me reposting their links/photos.
Both are just a tad too low for my taste, but would probably appeal to most who are looking to lower their vehicle.
I’m still leaning towards the AST springs because they offer multiple lowering heights/options.

Note, it may be difficult to see from the attached photos, but EAS told me that the rear ended up sitting just slightly lower with the Eibach’s compared to the H&R’s. It sort of appears that using the Eibach’s resulted in an ever so slight negative rake, which I would not like. But, that (the appearance of a negative rake) could be just how I’m seeing that particular photo and may not actually be present.

Hard to make an informed decision based on just these photos, but to me the H&R’s resulted in a better overall look/stance. I have no idea how either one performs/rides, but it sounds like Tesla’s stock adaptive dampers does a good job of adjusting to & pairing with the various aftermarket springs that are out there (Unplugged, H&R, Eibach, AST, etc…).


Here is the Eibachs:
2024 Tesla Model 3 - Eibach Pro-Kit Springs, Eibach Swaybars

Here is the H&R:
2024 Tesla Model 3 - H&R Sport Lowering Springs

Thank you! I was thinking Eibach, but I kind of like how the H&R looks better.

 

[Sweed269]

It doesn't really have that much rake. The rear fender is higher than the front. Measure from the battery and it will be almost perfectly level.

 

[DNAPoPo]

It doesn't really have that much rake. The rear fender is higher than the front. Measure from the battery and it will be almost perfectly level.

This is stock or with one of the sets of lowering springs?

 

[Sweed269]

This is stock or with one of the sets of lowering springs?

Fenders are not a "fixed" point that are identical on all cars and are not the same distance front to rear. Measure from the battery like they show in the manual. This is a fixed point and will give you the real height and rake. Stock or otherwise.

You also want some rake. Almost all added weight from passengers and cargo is rearward.

 

[DNAPoPo]

Fenders are not a "fixed" point that are identical on all cars and are not the same distance front to rear. Measure from the battery like they show in the manual. This is a fixed point and will give you the real height and rake. Stock or otherwise.

I understand that part of measurement, just not sure which option you were referring to as "perfectly level."

 

[GreenHokie]

So, I measured from the ground to the bottom of the battery pack and I get the following results:

Ground-to-battery pack (at its furthest point towards the front of the vehicle): 5-3/8” (136.5 mm)

Ground-to-battery pack (at its furthest point towards the rear of the vehicle): 5-11/16” (144.5 mm)

So, I believe this means/confirms I have 144.5 - 136.5 = 8 mm of positive rake on my vehicle

Yes, I realize some positive rake is good/normal