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I agree. A number of us here are in LPP. And if you don't want to invest, but think that the possibility of getting a better energy source is a good idea, they also have a campaign on IndieGoGo. There's a thread about LPP over in the off topic section. LPP-investment-questions-discussion
I agree that the mods have the last word. No need to keep nagging about it, because it just bears the risk of making people angry, as the process goes on and on. Let's keep it cool and civil 
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Focus Fusion is sound science, as peer review of the work done shows. However, it is also clear that there is a quite a way to go (especially financially) until the science of Focus Fusion will have been implemented in a reliably engineerable form. It can feel frustrating, if one believes that this tech should be promoted as good as possible, and it doesn't quite work out as desired. Still, to create interest in others, the best way is to just show them what exists, and let them make their own, free choice.
I think it is correct to say that LPP is less than transparent about their finances. It's all fine and dandy, if the current Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign works out and $200k get collected to acquire the beryllium electrode. But then what? AFAIR, Eric Lerner mentioned that after that and showing that his theoretical models are in accordance with the then new measurements, it would take about $50mm over the course of a couple of years to solve all engineering aspects with enough engineers to produce a 5MW prototype reactor. Also, this money is seemingly supposed to come from the government (= tax payer money). I just see an issue here: Will that really happen? As long as the U.S. are involved in neverending series of military conflicts, there is a high chance that especially smaller projects (e.g. $50mm is nothing to the military) get canned or, in case of LPP, do not get funded. IIRC, in the beginning 2000's, all fusion programmes except ITER were practically defunded.
Robert Bussard, inventor of the modern Polywell reactor principle, was especially frustrated about that. Meanwhile, Lockheed Martin, in form of their Skunkworks division, outed themselves to be working on a reactor design, that suspiciously looked like Rob Bussards Polywell design. As contrasted wth LPP, Lockheed has practically unlimited funding power. I think we will actually get to see the first 100MW prototype reactor by 2017, as announced on Google's "Solve for <X>" a while ago by Charles Chase from Skunkworks.
LPP is no publicly traded company, and they only offer non-voting shares. From Eric Lerner's perspective, it is the right thing to do, if he definitely wants to keep full control over his company. On the other hand, this keeps potent investors out. Hen/egg problem: With the current state of the world, if LPP can't show something like a working reactor, they don't get money from the goverment. If they had a working reactor, they would not need external money anymore .
At this point in time, LPP does not appear to be an attractive investment, for reasons mentioned. I think that, as soon as new experimental results are available that show a beryllium electrode induced boost in fusion reactions as predicted by Lerner's models, LPP certainly deserves a new evaluation. For now, I think it doesn't hurt to donate some bucks for them to quickly acquire the needed beryllium electrode. Let's simply see what comes of it.
.Focus Fusion is sound science, as peer review of the work done shows. However, it is also clear that there is a quite a way to go (especially financially) until the science of Focus Fusion will have been implemented in a reliably engineerable form. It can feel frustrating, if one believes that this tech should be promoted as good as possible, and it doesn't quite work out as desired. Still, to create interest in others, the best way is to just show them what exists, and let them make their own, free choice.
I think it is correct to say that LPP is less than transparent about their finances. It's all fine and dandy, if the current Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign works out and $200k get collected to acquire the beryllium electrode. But then what? AFAIR, Eric Lerner mentioned that after that and showing that his theoretical models are in accordance with the then new measurements, it would take about $50mm over the course of a couple of years to solve all engineering aspects with enough engineers to produce a 5MW prototype reactor. Also, this money is seemingly supposed to come from the government (= tax payer money). I just see an issue here: Will that really happen? As long as the U.S. are involved in neverending series of military conflicts, there is a high chance that especially smaller projects (e.g. $50mm is nothing to the military) get canned or, in case of LPP, do not get funded. IIRC, in the beginning 2000's, all fusion programmes except ITER were practically defunded.
Robert Bussard, inventor of the modern Polywell reactor principle, was especially frustrated about that. Meanwhile, Lockheed Martin, in form of their Skunkworks division, outed themselves to be working on a reactor design, that suspiciously looked like Rob Bussards Polywell design. As contrasted wth LPP, Lockheed has practically unlimited funding power. I think we will actually get to see the first 100MW prototype reactor by 2017, as announced on Google's "Solve for <X>" a while ago by Charles Chase from Skunkworks.
LPP is no publicly traded company, and they only offer non-voting shares. From Eric Lerner's perspective, it is the right thing to do, if he definitely wants to keep full control over his company. On the other hand, this keeps potent investors out. Hen/egg problem: With the current state of the world, if LPP can't show something like a working reactor, they don't get money from the goverment. If they had a working reactor, they would not need external money anymore
.At this point in time, LPP does not appear to be an attractive investment, for reasons mentioned. I think that, as soon as new experimental results are available that show a beryllium electrode induced boost in fusion reactions as predicted by Lerner's models, LPP certainly deserves a new evaluation. For now, I think it doesn't hurt to donate some bucks for them to quickly acquire the needed beryllium electrode. Let's simply see what comes of it.
NigelM
Recovering Member
Sorry to cut your post to these quotes but they highlight my issues as a potential investor. A little research suggested that after the current crowd funding the next stage would require $1m and the next $50m. LPP needs to get a lot more transparent to attract that sort of money even if we assume the science execution is sound, reproducible and scalable. What happens if they don't raise the money?
My earlier posts about Eric Lerner have nothing to do with my politics (despite how others may desire to characterize them) but plenty to do with his. As long as investments are in non-voting shares there's zero recourse if all the science works but Lerner gives away the farm. If you're donating for the good of mankind then fine, but potentially it sucks from an investment standpoint.
Peter mentioned in his petition PMs a few weeks back that he has exciting news, would maybe help keep this discussion on track if one of you guys could share it with us.....
PeterJA said:
NigelM
Recovering Member
Non-investors. Peter, you're actively promoting LPP with an oft stated aim of attracting more investors. I'd also remind you that it was your suggestion to check out Lerner. When investing is restricted to non-voting shares and there's issues of financial transparency then "management" is a legitimate concern. Ignoring it or trying to demonize the OP doesn't make it go away and the questions about how LPP will create shareholder value and whether there'll ever be an exit route for shareholders still exist.
Raising money through donations doesn't imply material return but as you and the folks at LPP can see it's tough to get the numbers. Attracting investors means demonstrating an argument that there's going to be a healthy, accessible, rate of return.
What is the exciting news you have?
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NigelM
Recovering Member
Several issues were discussed up thread and reflected in the comment from your co-petitioner yesterday:
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Show me the promises. Maybe I missed them.
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Ok, it's just that you said on 5/28 you had exciting news you were going to post. That could really change the discussion here.
So my question is for Royal TS(LA) also. How is LPP "less than transparent about their finances"?
They have published several annual financial reports (which I can't find right now because they have a new website), they offer a detailed private placement memo, and CFO Bob Fitzgerald is happy to answer questions about finances or financial projections.
FUSION | Financial Projections
You missed them if you didn't read the private placement memo.
I said I plan to post exciting news. Some of the news has occurred, some is still coming.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Moderator Note: In reviewing this thread, it became clear it had become derailed by the *polite discussion* of where the thread should reside. So I've moved all of that discussion over to Snippiness should anyone really care to read it again. As usual, apologies to any innocent bystanders caught up in the mass move of posts.
Back to discussion about LPP!
Back to discussion about LPP!
NigelM
Recovering Member
Seems to have all been taken down, or not included in the updated website.
Sure you can't share the exciting news?
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
So I checked the last archived few versions of the LPP website, going back beyond December (used the Way Back Machine) and didn't see any financial reports, only the following statement under Financials:
It doesn't appear that any financial reports have been available on the website, at least not in the last year or so. Maybe I missed something, but I don't think so.
The private placement memo was never on the website, since that would violate SEC rules (I think). If you want to read it, contact Bob Fitzgerald, as the website says.
Here's something to hold you for a few days while I try to have a life other than posting on TMC.
LPP Fusion Newsletter, corrected, May 27 2014
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Financial reports were on the old website at one time, because I read them there. I can't remember when. If you want to read them, contact Bob Fitzgerald, as I said and the website says.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Update as of December 2014 (my synopsis of update newsletter):
The work on the Tungsten cathode has taken longer than expected. The main reason is that the firm initially contracted to do it backed out, and a new partner had to be found. Delivery is estimated in mid-February 2015. The cathode is made of 99.95% pure Tungsten and takes months to machine. Due to the brittle nature of pure Tungsten and the large size of the piece it has to be constantly taken out of the machining and be heat-treated to avoid cracking and to relieve internal stress. Since Tungsten has one the highest melting points of any material it can't be melted in poured in to a cast, but rather Tungsten powder is pressed and sintered in to a solid piece.
With the Tungsten cathode in place experiments will continue. If, as planned, the Tungsten cathode does not evaporate then the density of the plasmoid will increase and hence the yield of the fusion reaction will increase. The next step will be to manufacture the Beryllium cathode which will be in the final design. Beryllium is not as heat tolerant as Tungsten, but it is theorized that pre-ionization of the Beryllium electrode will protect it from evaporation. These theories need to be further tested experimentally before going forward with fusion experiments with Beryllium electrodes which is why a Tungsten cathode is the next logical step.
The Beryllium electrodes are expected to be ordered in January and delivered in the first half of 2015.
Here is the Tungsten cathode undergoing machining in China. It's 15 cm high:
The work on the Tungsten cathode has taken longer than expected. The main reason is that the firm initially contracted to do it backed out, and a new partner had to be found. Delivery is estimated in mid-February 2015. The cathode is made of 99.95% pure Tungsten and takes months to machine. Due to the brittle nature of pure Tungsten and the large size of the piece it has to be constantly taken out of the machining and be heat-treated to avoid cracking and to relieve internal stress. Since Tungsten has one the highest melting points of any material it can't be melted in poured in to a cast, but rather Tungsten powder is pressed and sintered in to a solid piece.
With the Tungsten cathode in place experiments will continue. If, as planned, the Tungsten cathode does not evaporate then the density of the plasmoid will increase and hence the yield of the fusion reaction will increase. The next step will be to manufacture the Beryllium cathode which will be in the final design. Beryllium is not as heat tolerant as Tungsten, but it is theorized that pre-ionization of the Beryllium electrode will protect it from evaporation. These theories need to be further tested experimentally before going forward with fusion experiments with Beryllium electrodes which is why a Tungsten cathode is the next logical step.
The Beryllium electrodes are expected to be ordered in January and delivered in the first half of 2015.
Here is the Tungsten cathode undergoing machining in China. It's 15 cm high:
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You can sign up for email updates from them, that come in about once every couple of months. For some reason I get two copies, you can have one of mine ;-).
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Update:
"The critical tungsten monolithic cathode, key to LPPFusion’s next set of experiments, has finally been completed and shipped. It arrived at Tungsten Heavy Powder headquarters in San Diego, California on Monday, Feb.23 from their manufacturing facilities in China. It is expected to arrive at LPPFusion’s Middlesex, NJ laboratory around March 2. “For a long time, this cathode has been in the future,” said LPPFusion Chief Scientist Eric Lerner,” and the future has finally arrived.” As described in the December LPP Focus Fusion report the great difficulty of manufacturing the part from pure tungsten to exacting requirements caused long delays, which have now ended.
After carefully testing and measuring the cathode, the LPPFusion team expect to install it in the FF-1 plasma focus device and begin experiments during March. The tungsten electrodes (the anode is already installed) are expected to totally stop vaporization of the electrode materials due to arcing, since they are each made of a single piece of metal, with no joins for arcs to form. In addition the tungsten material, which has the highest melting point and one of the highest boiling points of any material, is expected to eliminate additional vaporization from high energy (runaway) electrons during the earliest moments of the electrical discharge. Together, this should end the large amounts of impurities in the plasma, allowing the achievement of far higher fusion yields
Preparations for the new experiments have continued, with a successful test of the new adjustors. With the aluminum model standing in for the tungsten cathode, Lerner, Chief Research Officer Hamid Yousefi and Consulting Engineer Anthony Ellis succeeded in using the micrometer adjustors to center the cathode on the anode to an accuracy of 25 microns (one thousandth of an inch). In addition, a new gantry has been purchased and will be installed to help handle the tungsten cathode, whose concentrated 35 kg mass makes it too difficult to lift and position manually."
Also the update mentioned steps to improve their data analysis systems and steps taken to increase IT security and make them less vulnerable to "social engineering and other offline and online attacks". This is smart because as soon as experimental data from the Tungsten electrodes starts collecting this until now small and obscure (?) enterprise may get a lot of attention including perhaps interests who may want access to their "trade secrets".
"The critical tungsten monolithic cathode, key to LPPFusion’s next set of experiments, has finally been completed and shipped. It arrived at Tungsten Heavy Powder headquarters in San Diego, California on Monday, Feb.23 from their manufacturing facilities in China. It is expected to arrive at LPPFusion’s Middlesex, NJ laboratory around March 2. “For a long time, this cathode has been in the future,” said LPPFusion Chief Scientist Eric Lerner,” and the future has finally arrived.” As described in the December LPP Focus Fusion report the great difficulty of manufacturing the part from pure tungsten to exacting requirements caused long delays, which have now ended.
After carefully testing and measuring the cathode, the LPPFusion team expect to install it in the FF-1 plasma focus device and begin experiments during March. The tungsten electrodes (the anode is already installed) are expected to totally stop vaporization of the electrode materials due to arcing, since they are each made of a single piece of metal, with no joins for arcs to form. In addition the tungsten material, which has the highest melting point and one of the highest boiling points of any material, is expected to eliminate additional vaporization from high energy (runaway) electrons during the earliest moments of the electrical discharge. Together, this should end the large amounts of impurities in the plasma, allowing the achievement of far higher fusion yields
Preparations for the new experiments have continued, with a successful test of the new adjustors. With the aluminum model standing in for the tungsten cathode, Lerner, Chief Research Officer Hamid Yousefi and Consulting Engineer Anthony Ellis succeeded in using the micrometer adjustors to center the cathode on the anode to an accuracy of 25 microns (one thousandth of an inch). In addition, a new gantry has been purchased and will be installed to help handle the tungsten cathode, whose concentrated 35 kg mass makes it too difficult to lift and position manually."
Also the update mentioned steps to improve their data analysis systems and steps taken to increase IT security and make them less vulnerable to "social engineering and other offline and online attacks". This is smart because as soon as experimental data from the Tungsten electrodes starts collecting this until now small and obscure (?) enterprise may get a lot of attention including perhaps interests who may want access to their "trade secrets".
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Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
April update (my short version summary of the newsletter):
The Tungsten cathode has arrived. Tests confirm it's 99,95% pure Tungsten and within 150 micron tolerances. When mounting it to the fusion device it turns out that during manufacturing it had been impossible to compress the whole piece enough so that its tensile strength was lower than anticipated and a crack developed in the Tungsten ring connecting the cathode to the rest of the device (against a steel plate). Luckily the part of the attachment ring that serves as the electrical contact point was undamaged and the engineers came up with a new method of attaching the cathode by using a a steel brace. The upside to this problem being handled is that the new designe will be used with the future Beryllium electrodes (see below) and they will be cheaper thanks to the new design using less of the expensive metal.
The Beryllium anode and cathode, to be used in the final design, have been ordered and will be manufactured by companies in the US. The actual Beryllium will be supplied by a metallurgical plant in Kazakhstan. The Beryllium (as opposed to Tungsten) is a much more resilient material and much better suited to sustain the high x-ray fluxes expected in the later stages of the experimental program. The Beryllium electrodes are expected to be in place in the fall of this year.
On a more political note the relatively new Chief Research Officer from Iran, dr. Hamid Reza Yousefi, has a visa problem. He currently holds a so called EB-1 visa which is issued for "outstanding scientists" but the US Citizenship and Immigration Service has issued a notice of intent to revoke this visa on the grounds of a review where they decided that LPP had not "proven" that he was outstanding. There is an appeal in the works. To me this sounds like a lot of political shenanigans and my conspiracy paranoia spidey senses signal on high alert. Of course there are a lot of strong economical forces who do not wish for these experiments to succeed and political influence can without a doubt be bought in the US.
All in all nice progress for LPP and hopefully we'll see some nice experimental results with the Tungsten electrodes before the summer and come fall, Insha'Allah, let's hope we see net fusion gain on repeated shots with the Beryllium electrodes in place. Exciting times! For now let's hope LPP is still flying under the radar for most of those who wish to put a spanner in the works.
The Tungsten cathode has arrived. Tests confirm it's 99,95% pure Tungsten and within 150 micron tolerances. When mounting it to the fusion device it turns out that during manufacturing it had been impossible to compress the whole piece enough so that its tensile strength was lower than anticipated and a crack developed in the Tungsten ring connecting the cathode to the rest of the device (against a steel plate). Luckily the part of the attachment ring that serves as the electrical contact point was undamaged and the engineers came up with a new method of attaching the cathode by using a a steel brace. The upside to this problem being handled is that the new designe will be used with the future Beryllium electrodes (see below) and they will be cheaper thanks to the new design using less of the expensive metal.
The Beryllium anode and cathode, to be used in the final design, have been ordered and will be manufactured by companies in the US. The actual Beryllium will be supplied by a metallurgical plant in Kazakhstan. The Beryllium (as opposed to Tungsten) is a much more resilient material and much better suited to sustain the high x-ray fluxes expected in the later stages of the experimental program. The Beryllium electrodes are expected to be in place in the fall of this year.
On a more political note the relatively new Chief Research Officer from Iran, dr. Hamid Reza Yousefi, has a visa problem. He currently holds a so called EB-1 visa which is issued for "outstanding scientists" but the US Citizenship and Immigration Service has issued a notice of intent to revoke this visa on the grounds of a review where they decided that LPP had not "proven" that he was outstanding. There is an appeal in the works. To me this sounds like a lot of political shenanigans and my conspiracy paranoia spidey senses signal on high alert. Of course there are a lot of strong economical forces who do not wish for these experiments to succeed and political influence can without a doubt be bought in the US.
All in all nice progress for LPP and hopefully we'll see some nice experimental results with the Tungsten electrodes before the summer and come fall, Insha'Allah, let's hope we see net fusion gain on repeated shots with the Beryllium electrodes in place. Exciting times! For now let's hope LPP is still flying under the radar for most of those who wish to put a spanner in the works.
A quick bump, to mention that LPPfusion (the new name), having broken a number of records and progressed towards their goal, have issued a new Private Placement memorandum. That is, they're looking for another couple of million to move to the next phase. It's still very speculative. VERY. But I just ponied up a little more. (I probably need some legal disclaimer or something here. Let me just say that I don't represent them in any way, and am not shilling for them. Just an investor.)
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