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Lucid Air Will Be Better Than Model S, Says Former Tesla Engineer
- Thread starter TMC Staff
- Start date
Mo City
Active Member
Looking forward to 2022. Hopefully they can make these in volume at some point.Base Lucid Air announced. Looks very competitive with Model S.
CapeOne
Active Member
It should be noted that the $69,900 Lucid Air starting price includes the $7,500 federal tax credit i.e., $77,400 - $7,500 = $69,900.
Mo City
Active Member
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Hmmmm.... Looks like Elon saw the Lucid announcement.
uujjj2
Member
Lucid just needs to cut the price by $900 and increase range by 14 miles, and this car would be perfect.
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Mo City
Active Member
I love this kind of gamesmanship when it is legitimately material.Hmmmm.... Looks like Elon saw the Lucid announcement.
Another $2,570 on top of $3,000 is nothing to sneeze at!
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
That's a big price cut. But if the Lucid Air is not scheduled to be available in any volume until 2022 that makes me doubt the Model S price cut was in response to Lucid. Why would Tesla cut the price now in response to a car you can't even hope to buy until 2022?
I would love to see Lucid sell this in comparable volumes to the Model S, or even higher volumes - I just hope it doesn't bankrupt them. I imagine they will have a certain amount of access to additional funding from capital markets so this could allow them to stay in the game a few years until they get on their feet.
I'm a huge fan of any car that can displace an ICE car because I like to breath clean air. I'm surprised this isn't more important to more people. I mean, we are biological creatures and while we don't absorb toxins through our skin as readily as frogs, our lungs are very effective at absorbing everything we breath in. I don't understand people who are willing to settle for breathing the exhaust of gas and diesel engines. This is what makes you feel tired when travelling in traffic (and it helps cause a lot of accidents).
Ormond
Endless Peacock
I would love to see a Lucid Air in person. Does anyone know if there's a showroom open in Florida?
uujjj2
Member
https://www.lucidmotors.com/locations/
There's going to be two in Florida, but none are open yet.
But if you want to see one right now, you have to live in the SF Bay Area and drive around Newark and Fremont!
DJVoorhees
Member
The top of the Line Lucid is an insane car, 9.9 in the quarter mile at like 147mph, thats is CRAZY! I also like the full dash rather a lot more than a Model 3 style tablet.
On October 29 we visited the Lucid Air showroom in Beverly Hills as drop-ins after calling them at 1:45. Given our knowledgeable Tesla background including seeing a Lucid presentation at TMC Connect in 2017 we got a 1.5 hour tour from Danny. I went back this week to take pictures, when a chassis was added to the showroom.
Some Lucid details:
1) Battery cells are 2170's, same as Model 3/Y. Battery packs are smaller, 22 modules totaling 113kW. Packs have been tested extensively in Formula E. Race teams designed their own motors so Lucid designed a new compact drive unit with internal cooling. Lucid will have bidirectional charging, meaning the car will charge your home during a power failure, or charge another EV.
2) External design is similar to what we saw in 2017.
Time from design to production is less rushed than at Tesla. Production workers are supposed to e-mail problems upon discovery and get a direct supervisor response within an hour, and if not an upper management response within 4 hours. Time will tell if Lucid can avoid start-up quality control problems but they are actively trying.
3) I asked but immediately recalled that Lucid can afford to proceed patiently due to the deep pockets of their Saudi funding.
4) They have a service center in Beverly Hills but anticipate most service will be by ranger. They plan to embed a service employee in selected body shops around the country to avoid the overhead and state regulation issues Tesla has with service centers.
5) When we sat inside the prototype we could see the more luxurious appointments, closer to Porsche Taycan than to Tesla. Seats were perforated leather, darker tone front vs. rear and they plan to offer ventilation and massage.
The dash was about 30 inches wide with customizable screens.
The navigation map was tablet-sized in the center console but could retract into the dash for access to storage behind it.
And of course there were door pockets and hand grabs still missing from Model S.
All 4 doors opened at a button touch like the Model X front doors, but they decided to drop that feature for the production version. The roof is swept glass like Model X also.
Rear seats are conspicuously nicer than Tesla, two-toned slightly lighter color than front seats.
A stretch rear seat version will be available for China.
6) Autopilot cameras are similar to Tesla except for two in the rear. By computer synthesis they can create a composite image looking like a bird's eye view above the car. An interior camera above the steering wheel (the two pink dots) can monitor the driver and thus allow hands free Level 2 autonomy.
7) Rear trunk looks similar to Model S but there's less flexibility since it's not a hatchback.
The rear seats fold down if more storage is needed.
The frunk is deeper than Model S and so has upper and lower compartments like the rear.
8) The configurator shows premium sound and level 3 driving as standard for Grand Touring but optional for Touring. Checking those boxes doesn't change the price. Lucid has not yet decided pricing for those options, so Touring will be somewhere north of 100K with those options. I asked about air suspension, which has produced excellent ride and handling on the Raven Model S but the level of travel between highest and lowest settings is less than 2 inches. To my surprise Lucid's wheel struts have been engineered to accommodate either coil or air suspension but they have not decided yet which will be used for production cars.
9) The lower priced Air model is rear wheel drive. It also does not have the leather seats, probably has seats like my Model S. There may be other differences, not as yet determined.
10) So in tech specs (range, AWD, power), the Touring model matches Model S Raven but costs about 20K more. The interior space and luxury appointments will be worth that difference to some people. I have a friend who might look at it that way. He also likes to drive fast to Vegas nonstop, which is easy in the Grand Touring but a close call in the Touring or Raven Model S. I project about 400 rated miles LA-Vegas and about 360 rated miles Vegas-LA. Personally I make a 10-15 minute charge stop in Baker so I don't have to worry about how I'm driving.
11) I expressed my skepticism of Electrify America, strongly recommended that Lucid make adapters to use Tesla superchargers. I asked who will maintain and expand Electrify America beyond Dieselgate settlement money. Danny said he would research that but thought only about 1/4 of the $2 billion had been spent. I thought it was more, but the spending is through 2026 so he may be right. Electrify America has recently made its pricing more reasonable: 31 cents/kWh with $4/month subscription or 43 cents without. Superchargers are 28 cents/kWh.
This link is to an in depth interview with several Electrify America executives last January.
Electrify America Talks Charging Network Problems, Has Solutions
This article and video blog is about the East Coast Labor Day debacle with Electrify America:
Electrify America Shuts Down 500-Mile Charging Corridor Over Labor Day
Some Lucid details:
1) Battery cells are 2170's, same as Model 3/Y. Battery packs are smaller, 22 modules totaling 113kW. Packs have been tested extensively in Formula E. Race teams designed their own motors so Lucid designed a new compact drive unit with internal cooling. Lucid will have bidirectional charging, meaning the car will charge your home during a power failure, or charge another EV.
2) External design is similar to what we saw in 2017.
Time from design to production is less rushed than at Tesla. Production workers are supposed to e-mail problems upon discovery and get a direct supervisor response within an hour, and if not an upper management response within 4 hours. Time will tell if Lucid can avoid start-up quality control problems but they are actively trying.
3) I asked but immediately recalled that Lucid can afford to proceed patiently due to the deep pockets of their Saudi funding.
4) They have a service center in Beverly Hills but anticipate most service will be by ranger. They plan to embed a service employee in selected body shops around the country to avoid the overhead and state regulation issues Tesla has with service centers.
5) When we sat inside the prototype we could see the more luxurious appointments, closer to Porsche Taycan than to Tesla. Seats were perforated leather, darker tone front vs. rear and they plan to offer ventilation and massage.
The dash was about 30 inches wide with customizable screens.
The navigation map was tablet-sized in the center console but could retract into the dash for access to storage behind it.
And of course there were door pockets and hand grabs still missing from Model S.
All 4 doors opened at a button touch like the Model X front doors, but they decided to drop that feature for the production version. The roof is swept glass like Model X also.
Rear seats are conspicuously nicer than Tesla, two-toned slightly lighter color than front seats.
A stretch rear seat version will be available for China.
6) Autopilot cameras are similar to Tesla except for two in the rear. By computer synthesis they can create a composite image looking like a bird's eye view above the car. An interior camera above the steering wheel (the two pink dots) can monitor the driver and thus allow hands free Level 2 autonomy.
7) Rear trunk looks similar to Model S but there's less flexibility since it's not a hatchback.
The rear seats fold down if more storage is needed.
The frunk is deeper than Model S and so has upper and lower compartments like the rear.
8) The configurator shows premium sound and level 3 driving as standard for Grand Touring but optional for Touring. Checking those boxes doesn't change the price. Lucid has not yet decided pricing for those options, so Touring will be somewhere north of 100K with those options. I asked about air suspension, which has produced excellent ride and handling on the Raven Model S but the level of travel between highest and lowest settings is less than 2 inches. To my surprise Lucid's wheel struts have been engineered to accommodate either coil or air suspension but they have not decided yet which will be used for production cars.
9) The lower priced Air model is rear wheel drive. It also does not have the leather seats, probably has seats like my Model S. There may be other differences, not as yet determined.
10) So in tech specs (range, AWD, power), the Touring model matches Model S Raven but costs about 20K more. The interior space and luxury appointments will be worth that difference to some people. I have a friend who might look at it that way. He also likes to drive fast to Vegas nonstop, which is easy in the Grand Touring but a close call in the Touring or Raven Model S. I project about 400 rated miles LA-Vegas and about 360 rated miles Vegas-LA. Personally I make a 10-15 minute charge stop in Baker so I don't have to worry about how I'm driving.
11) I expressed my skepticism of Electrify America, strongly recommended that Lucid make adapters to use Tesla superchargers. I asked who will maintain and expand Electrify America beyond Dieselgate settlement money. Danny said he would research that but thought only about 1/4 of the $2 billion had been spent. I thought it was more, but the spending is through 2026 so he may be right. Electrify America has recently made its pricing more reasonable: 31 cents/kWh with $4/month subscription or 43 cents without. Superchargers are 28 cents/kWh.
This link is to an in depth interview with several Electrify America executives last January.
Electrify America Talks Charging Network Problems, Has Solutions
This article and video blog is about the East Coast Labor Day debacle with Electrify America:
Electrify America Shuts Down 500-Mile Charging Corridor Over Labor Day
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Ormond
Endless Peacock
It would vary greatly, depending on the household usage and the charged battery capacity.
A quick formula would be to take the charged battery capacity, reduce it by 10% for conversion losses and then divide by the average hourly household electrical use.
If you had a 113 kWh battery that was 90% charged and took 90% of that, you'd have about 91.5 kWh. If your house used an average of 1 kW per hour, the batteries could last you close to 91.5 hours. If your average household usage is closer 2 kW, then about 45 hours straight. If your average is 5 kW, the batteries would only last about 18 hours. One thing to remember is that if you then drive your car somewhere, the house would be unpowered if the grid was down. Also, you'd probably need additional hardware installed on your house to prevent electricity from being sent back to the grid during an outage.
A better solution is to get Powerwalls and solar. Our ~52 kWh (4) Powerwalls plus solar allow us to easily run ~48 hours without any sunlight. If we have sun, our solar+batteries can power the house and cars indefinitely. We've gone over 200 hours during an outage test. Check out Tesla Energy forum if you want to learn more about powering your house via batteries. It's possible Tesla could add such functionality to their cars in the future but having fixed battery storage + gateway + solar is available now.
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Thanks for the info.
The last time we looked into solar it didn't make financial sense for us. Part of the problem is the way our house faces and not any good places on my roof to put solar panels facing South. Our electricity is fairly cheap also. Payoff off with a powerwall would take a very long time. Maybe when my roof needs to be replaced someday a Tesla Solar roof might make sense.
However, ever once in awhile we do lose power for maybe an our or 2 max. Would be nice to be able to utilize the battery in the car.
For shorter outages, the car battery would be sufficient but I still think the house would need additional hardware installed.
I've lived in the same town for 25 years. Up until 2 years ago, the longest outage we had was about 8 hours when we had 4 feet of snow.
Since we got solar and Powerwalls installed about 2 years ago, we've experienced several multi-day outages due to weather. Fortunately, our solar and Powerwalls kept things going for us. We were even able to run an extension cord to one of the neighbors so that they could plug in their refrigerator. One nice thing is that it is totally silent compared to a generator. Our neighbors on the other side have a generator that they ran 24 hours a day for multiple days and it's very annoying.
I don't think Lucid Air sits higher than Model S. Exterior dimensions are 1/2 inch shorter and 1/2 inch narrower yet it beats both Model S and Model 3 in aerodynamic drag.
If we still had the 2016 S90D, I'd be looking to upgrade and it would be a close call between Lucid Touring and Raven S and we'd make that call about a year from now. Since I was impatient and made the upgrade to an EV capable of cross country driving comparable to gas cars (9,000 miles of that this summer) just a year ago, we are comfortable with 2019 Raven Model S for a few more years. By the time we look for the next upgrade, we'll know whether Electrify America is viable and reliable. I'm speculating in my current pessimism about EA and hope to be proven wrong.
The bidirectional charging is attractive for power outages. If you have one, you're going to be careful and only use the power for the most essential functions, so probably holding consumption to 1kW per hour or less.
I was way early on solar panels due to a huge state/city subsidy offered in 2008. But I have no capacity to route their power directly to my house. Power failures are rare where I live: 6 hours after the Northridge earthquake in 1994, otherwise I don't recall any longer than an hour. But I'm reminded it's not that way in many places. Where I'm visiting in Florida, the block across the street was without power for 10 hours after Eta dumped 6 inches of rain in 5 hours with gusty winds up to 50mph.
46&2
Member
... I am in that boat, almost.
Thinking about replacing my 2015 Model S 85D these days, with Tesla trying to get everything out in 2020. They got a few Model S Long Range Plus available.
Or wait for that car?
We NEED the Lucid Air on the roads, as every EV is a good EV, as long as it prevents someone from buying a new ICE car. But for me, already owning an EV (and never going to an ICE), I want the Lucid Air to put at least some sort of pressure on Tesla.
What holds me back, keeps me thinking, before changing to a 2020 Model S Long Range Plus? The fact that the Model S still is a 2015 Model S. Not technically, I know the battery, motors, some trims... are newer. But then:
- Light in the trunk?
- Storage around the driver's seat?
- 40-20-40 folding rear seats for that long item (or 60-40 with pass-through)
- tow hitch
- some Model 3/Y tech:
- heat pump and the new heating/cooling solutions
- usb-ports (glovebox?)
- key card / mobile phone / access solution
- adjustable seat belt
- adjustable head rest
- better headlights
- still better windows (noice cancelling)
I know many of these points are good already, in an S. But still... it feels wrong Tesla isn't adding this stuff into it's top line S and X cars.
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