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Ludicrous upgrade, battery life, and resale values

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by CSFTN, Jan 1, 2016.

  1. CSFTN

    CSFTN Member

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    Like many other P85D owners, I am considering the Ludicrous upgrade. It would appear we have about 2 more weeks to decide and pay our deposits. I have 2 concerns I haven't seen addressed elsewhere:
    1) how does it affect resale value?
    Specifically, if my memory serves, Tesla has a formula for turn-in valuation that goes something like value = (original purchase price without taxes fees delivery costs) - (number of months owned *1000) - (number of miles on odometer). So lets say I spent $130K on my P85D, then spent 5K more on the ludicrous value. Does the calculation start with 130K or 135K (or 140K, which is what a new and identical p85D would cost)?

    2) does the act of completely draining the battery to install the Ludicrous hardware parts diminish the lifespan of the battery pack?
    We are regularly reading "don't ever drain the pack completely" or "the computer won't let you drain the pack completely, there's still ~ 5% left" so how much damage is sustained by the process of upgrading?

    Anyone have any insights, or discussed this with anyone of authority at Tesla?

    (a third question could be if your upgrade is installed far from Fremont, likelihood that there will be a negative experience with damage to the car)
     
  2. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    depleting to 5% will not adversely affect battery cycle life......

    As for value and resale, money in your pocket is always better than money pushed into a depreciating asset. I suggest you base your decision on desire and not resale. If you really want a positive impact on the value of the car when you are done with it, sell it to any other wholesaler other than tesla and you will likely see more than $5K more in your pocket.
     
  3. andrewket

    andrewket 2014 S P85DL, 2016 X P90DL (soon 100)

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    Keep in mind that the Lud upgrade is 10k from the factory. So I'd expect to get at least 3-4k for it at resale. But perhaps more importantly, anyone in the market for a P85/90D clearly wants performance. A buyer comparing two cars, one with and without Lud, when you're already spending significant money, is likely to choose the one with Lud.
     
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  4. Branzo90D

    Branzo90D Salt and Pepper

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    What @lolachampcar said. You'll always get back less than you put into a car. Question is: Do you really want the performance boost? Is it worth the $5k less any resale value to you?
     
  5. P85DEE

    P85DEE Active Member

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    Sage advice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Good point.

    I know now that were I looking to buy a pre owned P85D I would only look at those which had the Ludicrous upgrade.
     
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  6. CSFTN

    CSFTN Member

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    Thanks for the response, but I don't think you are actually answering either question. My understanding is that they completely discharge the battery when they upgrade. If they don't, then fine. If they do, does that damage the battery, or shorten its lifespan?

    Yes, I am aware of these points. The question nevertheless remains, as I feel its valuable to consider both the rational and emotional perspectives in decisions such as these.

    Anyone care to discuss technical details of battery depletion, or have any knowledge on valuation of your car after factory upgrades?
     
  7. ChadFeldheimer

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    Sounds like the valuation that you are referring to ($1/mile, $1000/month) is Tesla's pricing model for inventory / demo cars. Many trade-in offers reported on this forum are much lower than $1/mile and $1000/month.

    My two cents: I would expect to recover well under 50% of the upgrade cost at time of resale. And I expect that any wear/damage on the battery pack as a result of the upgrade is negligible compared to the $5000 out of pocket upgrade cost.
     
  8. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    CSF,
    Although I appreciate your desire to ask direct and precise questions, the answers you have received so far are all that is available. Tesla depletes the battery to lower the pack's voltage and decrease available energy should something go wrong during the exercise. They hold the warranty liability thus will not deplete it to such a level as to damage the pack and low states of charge are otherwise not detrimental to pack life. WRT your valuation question, you know as well as anyone else that what you receive back from the upgrade when you dispose of the car is at the whim of Tesla (assuming that is the channel you will use). Anything they say today is useless more than 30-45 days down the road if you pay attention to their standard trade in offers so expecting exact answer on something you may do in a few years does not seem to make any sense.

    The above said, please feel free to pursue exact answers to your questions and I will keep my opinions to myself. With luck, some Tesla engineers and business managers will post replies for you :)
     
  9. GSP

    GSP Member

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    "Completely discharge" can have many definitions. If the literal definition of "completely" is used, then the battery will be drained to zero volts by shorting it out for several days. Afterward it will be completely inert and safe to handle (bricked), but will never accept a charge again. It is pretty unlikely that Tesla will do this!

    "Completely discharge" is often used to describe discharge until the cell with the lowest voltage reaches its safe minimum operating voltage. This will not hurt the cell(s) if it is recharged shortly afterward. It also can mean discharge down to the minimum SOC Tesla reserves for anti-bricking protection, which is probably what Tesla does.

    I would trust Tesla to do the job right. Their technicians are the best in the business, and their engineers provide well thought out and well documented service procedures. Your only job is to decide if Ludicrous Mode is worth $5k to you.

    As for resale, you may as well ask for stock pricing for that future date. You have some good info in this thread to make your own prediction. No one can possibly know the future for certain. With Tesla's infamous inability to communicate, both internally and externally, it is next to impossible to get the definitive answer for today's policy. It can vary minute to minute and employee to employee.

    Good Luck with your decision.

    GSP
     
  10. P85DEE

    P85DEE Active Member

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    #10 P85DEE, Jan 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
    Exactly.

    The information he's been given is as good as it gets based on what is known outside of Tesla themselves.

    If if he needs anything beyond that which has already been given, then his best bet would be to contact Tesla.

    The third question, I don't see anyone in here being able to accurately answer.

    It comes down to this:

    Ludicrous isn't a need, it's a want. If you want it, well then "you pays your money and you takes your chances".

    You "modify" any car, or even if you option one completely out from the factory, well then you have to know that you probably won't get all of your money back out of such efforts at resale or trade in time. Indeed, you'll probably get back pennies on the dollar. You're paying for the enjoyment. You can't expect to get all or most of your money back for a used Super Bowl ticket.

    Don't do the Ludicrous upgrade unless you are prepared to not see a penny of your investment in it back.
     
  11. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    They don't discharge the battery completely. In fact, if you bring it in at 30% or less, they don't discharge it all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If I were in the market for a used P85D, I would not consider one without Ludicrous unless I could add Ludicrous. So when this option is no longer available, I'd consider my P85D at a marketing disadvantage when competing against other Ludicrous capable Teslas.

    If Tesla continues to make this available without any obvious termination of the option(to existing P85Ds that is), then I'd consider my P85D at a marketing disadvantage, if I'd received the upgrade, compared to those that had not yet received the upgrade as it would afford me a chance to by an example that had not had the extra power coursing through the battery and the drive train.
     
  12. P85DEE

    P85DEE Active Member

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    How are your results shaping up so far and what are your impressions now that you have it?
     
  13. JeffS

    JeffS Member

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    An opposing view to the last couple of posts. If I were in the market for a P85D, I wouldn't pay anything for the ludicrous upgrade. I totally don't care about that fraction of a second in a 1/4 mile time nor acceleration stats.

    I also consider 21" wheels a $7000 loss...$4500 lost money to buy the wheels and $2500 to buy the far more practical and equally fancy 19's.

    This isn't meant to start a debate on who is right or wrong, just sharing an opinion.

    The seller would have the absolute prerogative to not sell to me at the price I would pay. And it would probably end there. But having it, and expecting your money back for it, takes a lot of prospective buyers off the table. And that's the point I wanted to make. Is it an option that has more buyers that demand it than say "meh...whatever"? I personally don't think so.
     
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  14. P85DEE

    P85DEE Active Member

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    #14 P85DEE, Jan 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
    Your signature indicates that you don't currently own a P85D, which of course would further indicate that maximum available performance at the time you built/purchased, was probably not a consideration to begin with.

    "Mid Dec 2014 build, delivery Jan 31, 2014 S 85. Metallic gray, textile, obeche matte, tech and lighting pkgs, 19" wheels, autopilot."

    As such, it is quite understandable how you possibly would not be inclined to pay for Ludicrous when you didn't pay for Insane when it was available.

    However, the P85D is going to appeal to those who put a premium on performance. And of that group, some, if not most, are going to be looking for the P85D version which offers the most performance.

    Performance buffs, well, they buy performance.

    And so with all due respect, I tend to think that your perspective on this matter and your last sentence above, might be way off. Way, way off.

    No offense, but an opinion from a non performance version owner, on what performance oriented buyers might be looking for, is an opinion that I'll pass on.
     
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  15. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    My money is (literally) on DEE with this one :)
     
  16. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    Not much to report since my first update in the main upgrade thread. Holiday travel plus getting ready for several weeks of international travel for business has left me scrambling at home, with what little time I do have, to finish up some projects that can't sit idle while I'm gone.

    I have yet to supercharge to 90%+ or use max battery to "ready" state at 90%+. I'm curious what it will do at 100% with max battery(given that AWDTesla's P90D made 468KW). The highest I've seen so far is 442KW but that was without supercharging or using max battery. I'm cautiously optimistic that it will be higher under those conditions.

    It's gotten much colder where I live and I see the regen limitation each time I get in the car to run an errand and the power is only about what what insane mode is with a heated battery. Yesterday, I did use max battery for about 15 minutes before leaving and it said it had an estimated 45 minutes before it was ready when I left but even then, the meter shot past the 4 on the 400(sorry no powertools this time), so even a little bit of battery warming appears to provide more power than the Insane mode.
     
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  17. JeffS

    JeffS Member

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    Yep. All accurate. That's why I led with "an opposing view". There are a lot of Tesla owners who want the tech, but don't go to the track and don't care if their 0-60 is 5sec or 3.

    Maybe there will be enough demand from the performance crowd to support Ludicrous cars prices. Maybe not. That was the purpose of my post.
     
  18. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    The real benefit of the Ludicrous upgrade is the highway passing. It puts it on par with the RS7 from 70-90. It should of course have been a lot faster than the RS7 from from 70-90 had it had 691 hp instead of 463, but that horse has been beat to death. At least it's on par now with the high performance German sedans.
     
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  19. P85DEE

    P85DEE Active Member

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    #19 P85DEE, Jan 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
    And that, along with the improvement in 0-60 and quarter mile capability, makes it worth 5 grand to me, and I suspect many other P85D owners.

    To get within a hair's breadth of the latest performance model's performance capability, with your last year's performance model, for $5k and in warranty, is a deal.

    If I'm a performance buff looking into buying pre owned P85D and there is a 3 grand difference (I'm using 3 grand instead of 5 grand, as no one can hope to get their entire 5 grand back at sale time), between a P85D I see with Ludicrous vs a P85D I see without it, all else equal, to not get the one with Luducrous for the extra 3 grand would be Insane.

    If I'm paying cash, then 3 grand for a car at that price point is not going to make or break me.

    If I'm financing, well then 3 grand is not going to make much difference in my payment.
     
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  20. Brit4864

    Brit4864 Member

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    One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet..what if a bigger battery with Ludicrous option is available later on? Say a 100 or 110Kw version in 3 years time? Sure it's likely to cost more than $5k but you'll get a new battery with extra range, L-mode and finally hp output closer to the "691hp" figure as well. If this happens, and my money is on it happening given their history of sudden spec changes "on the fly" (who remembers the promise of nothing better than the P85D for a year after it's launch?) the current $5k upgrade looks pretty weak. It's an incremental improvement. I've driven a P90DL and while the throttle response is a bit better in the mid range acceleration, there's not a huge difference IMHO.

    I think Lolachamp is right. Resale value is likely to be minimal between non-L and L mode P85D's. The only way any production car can become an asset is once it becomes a collectors classic car. Most people don't keep a car 25+ years. In the short term a P85DL might have a slight advantage on resale value and desirability until used P90D/L's start hitting the market.
     

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