Ludicrous upgrade, battery life, and resale values

[tstafford]

The Ludy upgrade is an interesting mod in the world of car mods. It's being done by the manufacturer with manufacturer parts - that's uncommon. Note: Tesla calls it a retrofit not an upgrade. I think this gives owners a shred of hope when it comes to resale value. In the world of mods (e.g. Dinan on BMW) they are of zero value and maybe even negative value due to the stress on other components (e.g. the turbos).

There are several things going in favor of the ludy upgrade re: resale:
- The upgrade/retrofit costs less than half what the option costs on a new car (absorbs some of the loss probably)
- It's a manufacturer install and manufacturer parts
- Speculation: I don't sense that the upgrade will cause other parts to wear appreciably worse. At least not enough to worry a used car buyer
- The fact that it is a retrofit of something that is available as a new car option is very different from other mods. People will view it with less skepticism

My comments are based on the following experiences:
- 535i Dinan - got no value or hit for the chip
- 997TT Fabspeed cats and exhaust - had to remove them, replace OEM prior to dealer trade, basically a push because the mechanic did the work for "free" in return for the left over parts
- 997S AWE cats and exhaust - dealer trade, no issues. Got a good number on the car but I suspect it had nothing to do with the AWE stuff
- Cayman S sport plus upgrade - gives the Cayman all the benefits of Sport Chrono w/ Sport Plus w/o the silly clock thing on the dash. This is an OEM Porsche part installed by the dealer. Got no value at all of this
- Cayman S K40 integrated radar - no value

 

[sorka]

This is a factory option that adds less than 4% to the cost of the vehicle for about 10% more power. It's half of what it costs to order the car with the option. The discount was an attempt to appease those that feel they were under promised from a horsepower standpoint. It represents a bargain for the amount of power you get for the cost. It's a not brainer.

Note, this doesn't mean I believe Tesla has is off the hook for delivering a car with 228 hp less than advertised but for this particular upgrade and it's cost, it's a performance bargain.

 

[LetsGoFast]

I've paid much more for much smaller improvements on other cars, that's for sure. However, I'm guessing the ROI on any performance upgrade isn't great. Everyone wants to buy a car from a granny who never drove faster than 35mph.

 

[sorka]

I've paid much more for much smaller improvements on other cars, that's for sure. However, I'm guessing the ROI on any performance upgrade isn't great. Everyone wants to buy a car from a granny who never drove faster than 35mph.

But that's not the car, it's the driver. Everyone wants to buy the M3 that was driven by the conservative driver and not the 20s somethng weekend track warrior. They'll pay more for the M3 than the next most powerful 3 series. If they're looking for a performance car, they'll buy the M3, not the 340i.

 

[P85DEE]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet..what if a bigger battery with Ludicrous option is available later on? Say a 100 or 110Kw version in 3 years time? Sure it's likely to cost more than $5k but you'll get a new battery with extra range, L-mode and finally hp output closer to the "691hp" figure as well. If this happens, and my money is on it happening given their history of sudden spec changes "on the fly" (who remembers the promise of nothing better than the P85D for a year after it's launch?) the current $5k upgrade looks pretty weak. It's an incremental improvement. I've driven a P90DL and while the throttle response is a bit better in the mid range acceleration, there's not a huge difference IMHO.

I think Lolachamp is right. Resale value is likely to be minimal between non-L and L mode P85D's. The only way any production car can become an asset is once it becomes a collectors classic car. Most people don't keep a car 25+ years. In the short term a P85DL might have a slight advantage on resale value and desirability until used P90D/L's start hitting the market.

Great points and no argument with that at all.

When something "bigger and better" comes out, the used "lesser" model is going to take a hit.

But that's an apples and oranges omparison.

When end you compare "like" versions of the Model S, namely the "two" P85D versions of the car, then one has to ask which version will be more desirable between those two.

Buyers in the market for a pre owned P85D as opposed to a P90D with Ludicrous, or a P110D with Ludicrous, due to budgetary constraints or even other reasons, which P85D are they likely to want. The one with the Ludicrous retrofit, but for a few dollars more, or the one without it if the difference is only around 3 grand?

 

[BrokerDon]

If you owned a March 2015 P85D (which has the stiffer P85+ "sport" suspension), would you upgrade it to Ludicrous for $5,000? Or wait to see if Tesla will eventually offer an upgrade to P100D ?

 

[ICUDoc]

They don't discharge the battery completely. In fact, if you bring it in at 30% or less, they don't discharge it all.

Yup, that's how it worked for me. Not completely discharged at any point.

 

[Canuck]

No offense, but an opinion from a non performance version owner, on what performance oriented buyers might be looking for, is an opinion that I'll pass on.

You must have missed the class in school that teaches subjective opinions are to be treated as suspect for numerous very good and compelling reasons -- not objective ones.

Those who are saying that people who buy used cars are performance buyers vs. non-performance buyers are, in my view, wrong. Some are, but most are not. People buying used cars are looking to avoid the large depreciation hit a new buyer takes, or they can't afford to buy new. There's really no other reason to buy used. Thus, the options become necessity or gravy depending on the particular buyer. There's a ton of people here who have said they only got the performance version because the deal was so good on a used one but they're not performance people and would not have paid for it new. Most buyers are not true performance buyers in the strict sense since even a bare bones Tesla is a performance vehicle to people who are not really performance people. Most of the true performance buyers buy new so they're mostly out of the used market anyway. People are fooling themselves if they think otherwise, or they cut off people with different opinions based on some BS excuse like I can't have an informed opinion on this issue. Yeah, right. Good one there. I'm not a scientist either but I have an opinion on global warming and most scientists have not lived through the global warming events they are predicting... but that's for another thread.

Anyone doing this upgrade, and in doing so, is looking at resale value as the reason for doing so, is doing so for the wrong reason. Take the money and invest it as an investment instead.

 

[P85DEE]

You must have missed the class in school that teaches subjective opinions are to be treated as suspect for numerous very good and compelling reasons -- not objective ones.

Those who are saying that people who buy used cars are performance buyers vs. non-performance buyers are, in my view, wrong. Some are, but most are not. People buying used cars are looking to avoid the large depreciation hit a new buyer takes, or they can't afford to buy new. There's really no other reason to buy used.

Thus, the options become necessity or gravy depending on the particular buyer. There's a ton of people here who have said they only got the performance version because the deal was so good on a used one but they're not performance people and would not have paid for it new. Most buyers are not true performance buyers in the strict sense since even a bare bones Tesla is a performance vehicle to people who are not really performance people. Most of the true performance buyers buy new so they're mostly out of the used market anyway. People are fooling themselves if they think otherwise, or they cut off people with different opinions based on some BS excuse like I can't have an informed opinion on this issue. Yeah, right. Good one there. I'm not a scientist either but I have an opinion on global warming and most scientists have not lived through the global warming events they are predicting... but that's for another thread.

Anyone doing this upgrade, and in doing so, is looking at resale value as the reason for doing so, is doing so for the wrong reason. Take the money and invest it as an investment instead.

Wow, that post is a blast from the past.

It's been my experience that among sports and performance car enthusiasts who are in the market for a pre owned sports or performance car, the more powerful versions of the same car, tend to be more desirable and popular on the used market and among those buyers than the less powerful variants of the same model.

If I didn't word my prior post to be as specific, then I should have

I've seen this happen with versions of the the C5 and C6 Corvettes, Camaros, BMW 3 and 5 Series, and Mustangs.

Finally, I'm not saying that he "can't" have an opinion on that matter, just that based upon my own observations, I'll pass on it. No one else has to.

But he can certainly have an opinion on it just as anyone else can.

Also, I agree with anyone who says or implies that the cash outlay for the additional performance is probably not going to "all" come back to the original owner, whether the additional performance was a factory option or after purchase addition.

The performance versions may fetch more at resale time among those in the used market looking to buy a performance car. But their owners paid more for them too.

No doubt it's more sensible to invest 5 grand in a solid investment vehicle in an attempt to make it grow, than to invest it into any car.

However if you have the disposable income, and want it, well then I definitely recommend Ludicrous.

And yes, at resale time, I know that I certainly won't get all of my 5 grand back, but I'm optimistic that I'll get some of it back

 

[Canuck]

Finally, I'm not saying that he "can't" have an opinion on that matter, just that based upon my own observations, I'll pass on it. No one else has to.

I know you never said he can't have an opinion, I never said you said that. Rather, I said this:

... can't have an informed opinion on this issue.

I differ from you when it comes to the issue of "informed" opinions. I cringed when you "passed" on his opinion, not because of the points he made, which certainly you can and did take issue with, but simply because he doesn't own a performance vehicle. Now, of course, it's not simply because he doesn't own the vehicle. The logic behind your comment is that without owning one, and coming from the perspective of someone who owns one, his opinion is not as informed as someone who owns one, and thus he earned a "pass" from you. Right? I don't see any other reason you would "pass" other than he is not as informed. But perhaps I am missing something.

It's been my experience that among sports and performance car enthusiasts who are in the market for a pre owned sports or performance car, the more powerful versions of the same car, tend to be more desirable and popular on the used market and among those buyers than the less powerful variants of the same model.

Yes, of course, there's no doubt about that, with the key words being "among those buyers." But the issue really is, when it comes to resale value: how many of those buyers are there? Price points for different options on the open market are set by supply and demand and not by the cost of the option in the first place. There are a lot of performance version Tesla's on the used market and history has shown that the performance versions don't hold value as much as the non-performance versions. That's because the initial outlay is greater so the depreciation is greater. So history has already proved you wrong. But perhaps you're suggesting that there will be few of the ludicrous upgrades on the used market so performance buyers will drive up the price of those particular vehicle. I say in reply that are not enough of those buyers to push up the prices, that there is more supply than demand, and that looking at the upgrade in relation to resale value is not how one should look at it. Yes, you should get more than a non-ludicrous version but keep in mind those performance only buyers will be enticed by the 90/100's on the used market too -- and supply will likely not be an issue, in my view at least.

But we can agree to disagree. I just don't think you should "pass" on people's opinions simply because they did not buy a performance version but rather take a look at the merits of their arguments instead.

 

[P85DEE]

I know you never said he can't have an opinion, I never said you said that. Rather, I said this:



I differ from you when it comes to the issue of "informed" opinions. I cringed when you "passed" on his opinion, not because of the points he made, which certainly you can and did take issue with, but simply because he doesn't own a performance vehicle. Now, of course, it's not simply because he doesn't own the vehicle. The logic behind your comment is that without owning one, and coming from the perspective of someone who owns one, his opinion is not as informed as someone who owns one, and thus he earned a "pass" from you. Right? I don't see any other reason you would "pass" other than he is not as informed. But perhaps I am missing something.

Really what weighed in primarily in my decision to pass on his observations, were my own experiences which I described in my last post.

From what I have seen, performance car owners, who by definition of course would have previously, and at some point been in the market for a performance car, tend to look upon the more powerful variants of the same vehicle with a more favorable tendency and in a more favorable light, than those whose interests are not in the same place.

It has been my observation that it is harder to give an opinion about something which you are apathetic or indifferent about and place no value on.

For example, if someone is apathetic about Teslas, someone places no value on them and is indifferent when it comes to them, "wouldn't pay anything for them", well I'll typically pass on their opinions about them.

Likewise if I perceive apathy when it comes to Ludicrous as in "I wouldn't pay anything for it", personally I'll pass on the opinions from those whose attitude towards it is that low, if I am interested in it. Especially if they may have no experience with it.

Yes, of course, there's no doubt about that. But the issue really is, when it comes to resale value: how many of those buyers are there? Price points for different options on the open market are set by supply and demand and not by the cost of the option in the first place. There are a lot of performance version Tesla's on the used market and history has shown that the performance versions don't hold value as much as the non-performance versions. That's because the initial outlay is greater so the depreciation is greater. So history has already proved you wrong.

Wrong about what?

But perhaps you're suggesting that there will be few of the ludicrous upgrades on the used market so performance buyers will drive up the price of those particular vehicle.

Well no, that's not exactly my position.

In a nutshell what I'm saying is that some performance oriented purchasers, of those who wanted, or who want a performance version of the Model S, but who could not afford a new P85D but are in the market for a pre owned P85D, if given the choice between one with Ludicrous and one without it, may be willing to stretch for the pre owned car with Ludicrous.

Of course they won't likely pay for it if the price difference between the two used cars is the entire 5 grand. But depending upon other factors they may be willing to pay a portion of that.

How much, is of course anyone's guess.

But part of my point is that a performance oriented buyer is probably not going to take the approach; "I won't pay anything extra for it".

I say in reply that are not enough of those buyers to push up the prices, that there is more supply than demand, and that looking at the upgrade in relation to resale value is not how one should look at it. Yes, you should get more than a non-ludicrous version but keep in mind those performance only buyers will be enticed by the 90/100's on the used market too -- and supply will likely not be an issue, in my view at least.

Wish I could shake your hand. I could not agree more.

A big part of my point is, the guy or girl who could not get in on the Ludicrous versions of the car when it first came out, and was impressed by Insane, but blown away by Ludicrous, but previously saw no way to afford it, well if it comes down to a selection between two cars, the P85D with Insane vs the P85D with Ludicrous, well then if he's a performance car nut, I can tell you from experience when I was a struggling student, if the Ludicrous or additional upgrade in that performance car, is only going to jack up his monthly payment another $10.00-$20.00 a month, then there is a good chance he'll spring for it.

However for that buyer who could not care less, he won't pay an extra 10 cents a month for it.

For me then, and just me mind you I'm not saying that everyone should follow suit, but for me, if I'm listening to opinions about something extra, or that icing on the cake that I'm interested in, my tendency is to put more stock in the opinions of those who place the same "value" on that particular item as I do.

But we can agree to disagree. I just don't think you should "pass" on people's opinions simply because they did not buy a performance version but rather take a look at the merits of their arguments instead.

Well if my intent came across as that, I appreciate you pointing it out, tugging my coat and asking for an explanation.

However what I'm saying is that for me, and just speaking for myself, if I'm buying a vacuum cleaner, a fishing rod, or if I'm buying Ludicrous, and I place a value on either of the three, well then I'm more interested in the opinions of those who place a value on vacuum cleaners, fishing rods and Ludicrous.

Not that other opinion from non owners of either who also do not place a value on either simply just do not matter. Just that personally I'll pass on those.

I'm not saying his opinion is worthless, it's not. I'm only saying that I will pass on it because he clearly does not place the value on what we are talking about that I do.

 

[Canuck]

Wrong about what?

When I bought my vehicle, if I bought the performance version also, and went to sell both vehicles now, I would take a greater loss on the performance version. That's just a fact. So it's not like performance vehicles hold their value better. I was saying you were wrong about that but that's probably not fair of me to say to you, since you never really said otherwise.

The question rather, is whether the $5k spent for the upgrade is worth it from a resale perspective. I'm on the side of: get it if you want it for you, but not for any resale value, since the resale value argument is tenuous at best.

As to vacuum cleaners, fishing rods and Ludicrous, when it comes to the performance of each of those items, I agree to ask the owners. When it comes to resale value, it's probably better to ask pawn shop owners for the first two, and check out the CPO website on the latter, rather than asking the owners. I don't see the owners as having an objective basis for providing that information and in fact probably have a false sense of inflated values.

I'm not saying his opinion is worthless, it's not. I'm only saying that I will pass on it because he clearly does not place the value on what we are talking about that I do.

What value do you place on a used vehicle with ludicrous? I thought you bought your vehicle new? Perhaps only people who buy used performance vehicles are the ones with informed opinions?

Anyways, good argument. We're probably just going in circles and we probably agree more than we disagree.

 

[P85DEE]

When I bought my vehicle, if I bought the performance version also, and went to sell both vehicles now, I would take a greater loss on the performance version. That's just a fact.

And I don't doubt or contest that at all.

So it's not like performance vehicles hold their value better.

Indeed. The best used deal out there, for a person who has been dreaming about a Tesla, might turn out to be the 70D, or even the Model S 70, or even the 60.

Again I don't think that we are disagreeing as much as it might look on the surface.

I was saying you were wrong about that but that's probably not fair of me to say to you, since you never really said otherwise.

No problem.

The question rather, is whether the $5k spent for the upgrade is worth it from a resale perspective. I'm on the side of, get it if you want it for you, but not for any resale value, since the resale value argument is tenuous at best.

Wow. Again really we don't disagree.

I'd even do you one better. Don't buy it if you can't afford it.

A lot of what you are buying in Ludicrous, much in the same with any other luxury purchase, is the enjoyment of that which you bought.

You will never see the 5 grand that you put into it again.

The only thing I'm saying is that if a person who has dreamt of Ludicrous is looking at two cars, one with it, the other without it, that he may stretch to get the one with Ludicrous and pay a little extra for it.

Of course the "extra" that he is willing to pay, will never equal the original 5 grand the owner spent.

As to vacuum cleaners, fishing rods and Ludicrous, when it comes to the performance of each of those items, I agree to ask the owners. When it comes to resale value, it's probably better to ask pawn shop owners for the first two, and check out the CPO website on the latter, rather than asking the owners. I don't see the owners as having an objective basis for providing that information and in fact probably have a false sense of inflated values.

That may well be true.

But while owners may be biased, as it appears that you are indicating here, it should be pointed out that there is an equal peril in seeking the opinions of non owners, in that non owners might also be biased.

So opinons from each of the above two groups are likely to be tainted.

You are dead right that the best opinion on resale value of any item, would probably come from a "pawnshop" or a "seller", wholesaler or retailer, and with no dog in the fight, if you are a car "buyer" and evaluating opinion on that matter.

But I don't see very many salesmen on this forum and so, in here anyway, we are stuck with choosing from the opinions of the subset owners and non owners, of which neither is ideal.

However I'm not a current car buyer, but rather an owner of a current item which is the subject of discussion.

And in that role, not as a current car buyer, or someone in the market to buy a car mind you, but in that role of owner of an item being discussed, it is my approach, right or wrong, to place more weight towards the opinions of those who also own the item which is the subject of discussion.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just my approach.

 

[P85DEE]

...
What value do you place on a used vehicle with ludicrous?

I assume you're talking a dollar value?

Same mileage if it's low, and all else equal, same amount of warranty left, same service records, taking into account advancements in the Model S and the eventual release of the Model 3 ..........no more than $2500.00 and probably closer to $2,000.00 on the used market.

At this point in time, and on this day, were I a buyer, that's what I would pay over a used one with Ludicrous vs one without it. Somewhere around 2 grand.

Put a different way, if I were selling my car, realistically I would not be looking to get much more than around 2 grand more for it vs one without Ludicrous.

Someone else may say different.

And if selling my car, and some tire kicker told me that he was willing to pay nothing extra for it having Ludicrous, I'd tell him to go pound sand.

I thought you bought your vehicle new?

I did.

Perhaps only people who buy used performance vehicles are the ones with informed opinions?

No, I don't think so.

But people who have bought used performance vehicles and cross shopped them against the same model but with less performance, know about, or have an idea about, or a ballpark figure of, how much they are willing to pay for the extra bump.

I would agree with anyone in here that this number will vary among prospective buyers for that same extra bump.

However I think that one would be hard pressed to find a shopper among that group who was adamant about paying "nothing" for it.

Typically, were he adamant about paying "nothing" for it, and looked at that as a "realistic" option, well then chances are he probably did not place much, if any value on it in the first place.

Anyways, good argument. We're probably just going in circles and we probably agree more than we disagree.

It would appear so.