-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Ludicrous with 19s: dumb? or negligible difference?
- Thread starter disillusioned
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Model S
ArtInCT
Always Learning
I just ordered a set of Max Performance Summer Bridgestone Pole Position S-04's from TireRack. Total all in price was under $700 and I will go up to Windsor CT to their giant warehouse to pick them up. These will mount up on 19" TSL Cyclones. I just have to wait a few weeks to be assigned a Tesla VIN in order to get the TPMS sensors. Tesla apparently will NOT sell you parts if you do not have a VIN number... odd but true.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
I bought my "old style" TPMS sensors from Tire Rack. Are you sure they don't carry the new style ones?
ArtInCT
Always Learning
Hank, I opted to get the TPMS from my Tesla Service Center rather than Tire Rack. At least that way I will not have finger pointing, etc. and virtually no price difference.
BTW, I had run Pole Positions before on my 2004 Crossfire. They lasted 55K miles and were still going strong and quiet. On that auto, I had winter tires on from Thanksgiving to Easter
so that somewhat extended their life. But they were a very good tire and are at the top of the pack of Max Perf Summers in just about every category that is important to me. They also
come with a free road hazard warranty from Tire Rack... Sweet. The price overall cannot be beat for such a tire.
ArtInCT
Always Learning
Yes you are correct regarding the "new" Conti TPMS. I am not sure of the frequency Tesla is using or the Conti part number Tesla S's are fitted with. Again for that reason I am getting mine from Tesla.
By "all respects" I mean everything. the 19s handle better with equivalent tires. Search the forum and read the evidence.
No they won't. Demonstrably false. Search the forum, read the magazine stats and reports from intelligent people who have driven both.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Ok, I guess you win with the snippy ad-hominem attack and no proof to back up your subjective claims.
I have read all the forums, and the stats, and have owned and driven all kinds of wheels/tires for 30 years, and it is not "demonstrably false". There's a very good reason that all performance car makers sell larger wheels and smaller profile tires, and it's not just for looks. It's clearly for performance.
And If you have to resort to insulting my intelligence to prove a point, you obviously don't have one.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Even if comparing the identical tire on both rims, the increased width of the sidewall is going to have an impact on handling and performance. and it doesn't improve (in an overall,general sense) with higher profile tires. Yes, one can cherry-pick specific aspects that might be better between rim sizes, but in general terms of handling and performance for "ultra-high-performance" wheels and tires, the 19" rims will not out-perform the 21" rims, all things being the same.
Given that no tire manufacturer makes exactly the same sidewall for the same model tire in 35 and 45 ratio's, you will never get a "fair" comparison.
I've been trying to find an appropriate 19" staggered setup, for some reason M359 style BMW wheels seem to be a good fit. Then I realized the factory Model S staggered setup has underwidth wheels which mean excessive sidewall flex (and likely contributing to inside tire wire). See the simulation below for 21" factory to M359 style Avante Garde wheels. I think in this case simply some tire stretch on 19's may reduce play and offer superior handling to the stock setup.
Front:
Online Wheel and Tyre Fitment Calculator. Offset, Tyre Stretch and Speedo Error | Will They Fit
Rear:
Online Wheel and Tyre Fitment Calculator. Offset, Tyre Stretch and Speedo Error | Will They Fit
edit:Fix fronts
Front:
Online Wheel and Tyre Fitment Calculator. Offset, Tyre Stretch and Speedo Error | Will They Fit
Rear:
Online Wheel and Tyre Fitment Calculator. Offset, Tyre Stretch and Speedo Error | Will They Fit
edit:Fix fronts
JER
Member
Grip (i.e. the limit of adhesion) is primarily determined by the tyre compound. Fatter sidewall profiles do not decrease grip. Stepping down to all season tyres from summer performance tyres on any sized rims does.
I see no reason why 19" rims should curtail Ludicrous Mode acceleration, so long as you're willing to have them shod with equivalent rubber (which you can do for much less than the factory 21" option.)
The primary effect of skinny sidewalls is to stiffen the tyre’s response to loads. You get smaller slip angles for the same cornering force, and thus sharper compliance with steering inputs. The resulting difference in feel is often perceived as “sportier.”
There are drawbacks too; you get sharper onset of all types of skid (though driver aids make this largely a non-issue) and poorer compliance with uneven roads – making rim damage more likely.
The 21s do look cool, though.
I see no reason why 19" rims should curtail Ludicrous Mode acceleration, so long as you're willing to have them shod with equivalent rubber (which you can do for much less than the factory 21" option.)
The primary effect of skinny sidewalls is to stiffen the tyre’s response to loads. You get smaller slip angles for the same cornering force, and thus sharper compliance with steering inputs. The resulting difference in feel is often perceived as “sportier.”
There are drawbacks too; you get sharper onset of all types of skid (though driver aids make this largely a non-issue) and poorer compliance with uneven roads – making rim damage more likely.
The 21s do look cool, though.
ArtInCT
Always Learning
Correct me if I am wrong guys, but at the few dragstrips that still exist in the Northeast, the crew treats the surface of the strip with a spray on adhesvie enhancing solution. Many P90D owners will be doing their timeings on such surfaces with that type of adhesion treatment IF the owner has shod his wheels in a suitable tire.
See posts on this and the other forum of magazine article stats that show no skidpad improvement of 21s over 19s.
I've seen no evidence that 21s perform better than 19s with same tires. (And even in some of the magazines, with worse a/s tires)
But if anyone does have evidence pls share.
I've seen no evidence that 21s perform better than 19s with same tires. (And even in some of the magazines, with worse a/s tires)
But if anyone does have evidence pls share.
ArtInCT
Always Learning
Maybe we should invite DOC from the TireRack to come on in....? I think he has a presence here on TMC... I will go Kick his tire rack.
Model S data points on handling performance with different wheel/tire/suspension combos:
19" wheels with the all season tires:
2014 nonP 60 with 19" Eagle RS A2 = skidpad .89 http://media.caranddriver.com/files...eview-car-and-driver2014-tesla-model-s-60.pdf
19" wheels with AWD D and all season tires:
2015 nonP 70D with 19" primacy m+s = skidpad .87 http://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s
21" wheels with summer tires:
2012 P85 with 21" staggered Pilot Sport PS2 tires skidpad .86g slalom 66.8http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2012/road-test-specs1.html
2013 P85 with 21" square Conti ExtremeContact skidpad .87 (.85 w/ ESC) Edmunds slalom 63.6mph http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2013-tesla-model-s-track-test.html
2013 P85 Sig with 21" staggered Pilot Sport PS2 = skidpad .91 braking 60 ft. http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2013-tesla-model-complete-specs.pdf
P+ or PD upgraded suspension with 21" and summer tires:
2015 P85D with 21" skidpad .89g Car and Driver http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-10000-mile-update-review (they had to buy a new tire with problem on their 21" rims)
2014 P85+ on Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 skidpad .91g http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...el_s_p85_vs_2014_bmw_i8_comparison/specs.html
2015 P85D with Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 skidpad .91g http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/
2015 P85D with 21" staggered on unspecified tires skidpad .90g and 67.4 on Edmunds slalom http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2015/road-test-specs.html
Note that Edmunds only got .86g and .87g out of two different 21" shod P85s. compared with .89 and .86 from the two 19" shod cars. No improvement with the 21" summer tires over the 19" all seasons!
The only improvement that makes any sense is moving to the summer tires or the P+/PD suspension. And even then, the improvement is surprisingly minor. The best is that Car and Driver got .91 out of a Sig Perf -- not clear if that had any + suspension bits at the time.
If you don't like the looks of the stock 19 rims, get the 19" cyclones.
19 > 21
19" wheels with the all season tires:
2014 nonP 60 with 19" Eagle RS A2 = skidpad .89 http://media.caranddriver.com/files...eview-car-and-driver2014-tesla-model-s-60.pdf
19" wheels with AWD D and all season tires:
2015 nonP 70D with 19" primacy m+s = skidpad .87 http://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s
21" wheels with summer tires:
2012 P85 with 21" staggered Pilot Sport PS2 tires skidpad .86g slalom 66.8http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2012/road-test-specs1.html
2013 P85 with 21" square Conti ExtremeContact skidpad .87 (.85 w/ ESC) Edmunds slalom 63.6mph http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2013-tesla-model-s-track-test.html
2013 P85 Sig with 21" staggered Pilot Sport PS2 = skidpad .91 braking 60 ft. http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2013-tesla-model-complete-specs.pdf
P+ or PD upgraded suspension with 21" and summer tires:
2015 P85D with 21" skidpad .89g Car and Driver http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-10000-mile-update-review (they had to buy a new tire with problem on their 21" rims)
2014 P85+ on Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 skidpad .91g http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...el_s_p85_vs_2014_bmw_i8_comparison/specs.html
2015 P85D with Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 skidpad .91g http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/
2015 P85D with 21" staggered on unspecified tires skidpad .90g and 67.4 on Edmunds slalom http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2015/road-test-specs.html
Note that Edmunds only got .86g and .87g out of two different 21" shod P85s. compared with .89 and .86 from the two 19" shod cars. No improvement with the 21" summer tires over the 19" all seasons!
The only improvement that makes any sense is moving to the summer tires or the P+/PD suspension. And even then, the improvement is surprisingly minor. The best is that Car and Driver got .91 out of a Sig Perf -- not clear if that had any + suspension bits at the time.
If you don't like the looks of the stock 19 rims, get the 19" cyclones.
19 > 21
