Because time shifting demand is a valuable service that you clearly prefer to pay 11p/unit for than sort out yourself (eg with a Powerwall).
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Luxury Tax
- Thread starter Martinb999
- Start date
Because time shifting demand is a valuable service that you clearly prefer to pay 11p/unit for than sort out yourself (eg with a Powerwall).
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I don't know what the wholesale price of electricity is, but can't see them wanting to pay you more than that (i.e. they can buy it cheaper elsewhere), and it may be that what you are selling them (i.e. small qty) is more expensive for them to "manage" than buying from a large power station ... so that would set the price.
of course Government and Regulator and a bunch of other people get in the way too and influence the price this way or that ...
And presumably anyone with un-metered export is deemed to export 50%, and paid for that, but can actually export zero (e.g. Immersion soaking up any excess)
The SR will never come to Europe. It's basically been cancelled in the US too - the price was hiked over the $35k mark and they do everything they can to discourage you from buying it, and then when you get one it's a software gimped SR+.
No, just a complete failure to get their manufacturing cost down to the point where they can sell an SR profitably.
goRt
Active Member
It's not "your meter", it's not "dictating to you"
The DNO (designated network operator) is balancing demand across its network to ensure supply.
There were lots of other (better?) Options put forward, but this is thrown selected.
ACarneiro
Active Member
I don't care who owns the meter, that's irrelevant.
And if the proposed solution is that the meter controls the charging cycle in the car then it's "dictating to me", albeit not literally.
I don't understand if you were making a counterargument or picking on semantics.
And if the proposed solution is that the meter controls the charging cycle in the car then it's "dictating to me", albeit not literally.
I don't understand if you were making a counterargument or picking on semantics.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
You will be able to charge the car whenever you like (and pay peak-rate) ... but if you choose to say "I need 4 hours charge before 6AM" and the provider can choose the actual start time (and give you an Off Peak tariff) that isn't "dictating to you"
Preventing you charging the car whenever you want to, e.g. for a life-and-death scenario, is never going to happen.
There are all sorts of Time-of-Use and Peak-Usage charges at present, but they don't occur in domestic situations - EV changes that 'coz it needs more juice than putting the cooker on for half an hour. So it presents opportunity for Provider to level-supply and purchase/generate electricity much more efficiently than if everyone just charges at the same time (e.g. a massive spike at the start of E7 Off Peak tariff)
huge opportunity to use the charging of EV batteries to smooth the supply demand.
ACarneiro
Active Member
Hmmmmm....
Until batteries improve, I worry about charge/discharge cycles if used to smooth out power demand on the grid.
I really worry about “solutions” that take away control from me.
Are we not just cobbling together workarounds to try mitigating for underinvestment in distribution and generation infrastructure?
Until batteries improve, I worry about charge/discharge cycles if used to smooth out power demand on the grid.
I really worry about “solutions” that take away control from me.
Are we not just cobbling together workarounds to try mitigating for underinvestment in distribution and generation infrastructure?
We have PV system rated at 7.2KW. In the peak days the system generates 50KWh, we use say 10KWh (40KWh to Mr Grid - we get paid for 25KWh @ 5p
. In Dec we generate on average 6KWh per day and typically use around 15KWh per day. Due to the lovely Britsh weather most of the PV production is during the Apr-Aug when typically our demand falls (lights on for less time, no need for electrical under-floor heating, away from home for weeks due to hols etc). Nature of the beast.A Powerall (or similar) solution would help to reduce consumption from the grid but the payback is awful and simply does not make any economic sense.
Approx cost for supply and install of Powerall 2 would be £10K+. Approx additional elec savings with Powerall storage ~£300 per year.
Break-even after 33 years... computer says no.
Dr Euan McTurk is reporting that (early) studies indicate that controlled charge/discharge under V2G arrangements may well improve the life/health of batteries (propelling EVs is very hard on batteries). That's @106Euan or check out Plug Life Television on YouTube. Euan is, I would suggest, the leading UK expert participating regularly/actively in the debate around these issues.
Indeed, I'm not surprised to hear that a Powerwall's economics are suspect. But the corollary is that getting your load time-shifted for 11p/unit really is a bit of a bargain. Or most of that 16p/unit isn't for the energy itself but getting it exactly when you want it.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I would phrase it differently:
Apart from avoiding the problem that everyone charging on E7 would cause a spike at the start of E7 period, BEVs present a fantastic opportunity to "load spread" during off peak in order to keep background power generation "spinning" (or in the case of Wind "not curtailed")
Right now the one-size-that-fits all causes the likes of Octopus to say "We'll give you a good price for a fixed 4 hours overnight slot" and quite a lot of chatter saying "I have nights when I need more than 4 hours and not sure if the higher Peak tariff will make it noncompetitive."
With SmartCharge if you can say "I need 4.5 hours charge before 6AM" that is more flexibility [compared to Octopus] (and in offering the power company that they are going to have to give you a good Off Peak rate ... otherwise everyone will just say "Charge now"
V2G is a different thing (where car battery can discharge into house and/or grid, which does result in more charge/discharge cycles). That's a debate between static battery in the house, or double-up the car battery for Driving and House/Grid. I haven't got my head around whether I would be comfortable that my car might have less range at a point in the evening when I urgently need to go somewhere - but if everyone shares that view the Discharge-to-Grid price just has to be high enough to encourage people
The massive battery Tesla installed in Oz is cost effective because it can prop up the grid (e.g. when power station fails) so quickly compared to bringing Peaker Plants online ... same possibility with V2G (without the capital cost for Energy Provider, so "Pay capital, or Buy-in" appliesRight now Tesla is not offering V2G because cars with unlimited Supercharger use could drive to Supercharge, come home and run the house for free!
I reckon you should be able to get nearer to £7.5K - but payback still nowhere near cost effective.
We have the regular amount of PV at present, but are going to cover the roof with PV and put PowerWalls in. No payback that works, but security of supply appeals (I work from home), and also helped by considering current property to be the "forever home" and spending capital now to mitigate running costs in retirement.
ACarneiro
Active Member
ACarneiro
Active Member
That is really interesting, thank you! Always assumed that once cycle is one cycle and there are only so many you can get out of a battery pack.
MrBadger
Badger out
Your assumption is not far off the mark. Except that a cycle is a full cycle, not partial cycle, of which you can have many more of. So a big battery can power a car for further, not just because it can hold more power, but, all things being equal, it will last longer because it has not been cycled so many times.
V2G and V2H, will probably 'borrow' a small percentage of a large battery, maybe 5% in a Tesla. So the effect on degradation should be much minimised.
A LI type battery will have many different types of chemistry all of which will perform differently. So, a chemistry best designed for car use, will iirc have a 'useful' life of 500-1000 cycles - work out the maths, 500 cycles, 300 mile range, gives 150,000 miles, which, tada, is the Tesla LR warranty. Of course, it should last much longer.
However, 500 cycles of a 14kWh home battery may last 1500 days, so about 4 years, not good. So a home battery will use a different chemistry of LI battery to allow far more cycles to make it last longer.
My view, I would much rather spend ££££ on a battery designed for the purpose (car battery for car, home battery for home), than risk something being prematurely aged, even by 5%, on a £50/60k car. The problem is, that £7-10k is far too expensive, and you will save more waiting for battery prices to come down than you can possibly save on electricity costs. I once ran a rough simulation over a year based upon my 5 minute logs that I keep for solar generation and home usage. £2500 and a 10 year warranty is about financial break even for us iirc. Had hoped for powerwall prices to come down, but they have in fact risen - much of it by installation costs and additional hardware.
V2G and V2H, will probably 'borrow' a small percentage of a large battery, maybe 5% in a Tesla. So the effect on degradation should be much minimised.
A LI type battery will have many different types of chemistry all of which will perform differently. So, a chemistry best designed for car use, will iirc have a 'useful' life of 500-1000 cycles - work out the maths, 500 cycles, 300 mile range, gives 150,000 miles, which, tada, is the Tesla LR warranty. Of course, it should last much longer.
However, 500 cycles of a 14kWh home battery may last 1500 days, so about 4 years, not good. So a home battery will use a different chemistry of LI battery to allow far more cycles to make it last longer.
My view, I would much rather spend ££££ on a battery designed for the purpose (car battery for car, home battery for home), than risk something being prematurely aged, even by 5%, on a £50/60k car. The problem is, that £7-10k is far too expensive, and you will save more waiting for battery prices to come down than you can possibly save on electricity costs. I once ran a rough simulation over a year based upon my 5 minute logs that I keep for solar generation and home usage. £2500 and a 10 year warranty is about financial break even for us iirc. Had hoped for powerwall prices to come down, but they have in fact risen - much of it by installation costs and additional hardware.
I wonder if investing in battery banks instead of smart chargers would be a better move. If the utility company could charge batteries itself during off peak then it can beat competitors by selling it back during peak. Probably worth more as a big provider than an individual with economies of scale and all that.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I just checked eBay in case anyone interested:
"17,542 results for Crystal Ball"
Just need to get a good one ...
"17,542 results for Crystal Ball"
Just need to get a good one ...
MrBadger
Badger out
Apologies, I hate the website I have linked to but this is effectively what I think Zenobe are doing with Stagecoach on the Guildford Park and Ride.
Guildford set for first fleet of all-electric buses
Not convinced some of the technical aspects mentioned in the article are correct. The maths behind this do not make a lot of sense to me.
Zenobe have got some pretty big Tesla batteries.
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goRt
Active Member
Probably better if you quote the post in your reply.
I was pointing out that your statement contained factual inaccuracies which were leading you to incorrect conclusions.
I then moved on to explain how things work - the cable in the street contains a finite capacity, so if every house calls for [say] 7KW on a phase there will be throttling known as demand management. Options to reduce this were put to government and rejected.
It will be the charge point that applies the throttling, not the meter - that's a simple counter.
MrBadger
Badger out
Quite. But lets not also forget, the meter will also 'count faster' when demand is high/capacity is low, so whilst it wont physically throttle your EV charging, it may well make charging at some times very expensive. And early evening cuppa, cooking your tea, watching TV etc.
Smart charger should know when things are going to be expensive and try its best to balance need with cost.
yeah, that's what the Ohme cable will do in conjunction with Octopus Agile tariff.
"I want the car @ 90 % by 8:30 am" and it should either use the greenest/lowest carbon or cheapest electricity overnight to do it
Octopus and Ohme Announce a Smart Cable |Vehicle to Grid UK
"I want the car @ 90 % by 8:30 am" and it should either use the greenest/lowest carbon or cheapest electricity overnight to do it
Octopus and Ohme Announce a Smart Cable |Vehicle to Grid UK
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