M3 AWD vs M3 AWD P 0-60 times

[SomeJoe7777]

I just don't understand how the AWD it would not be way faster they use the same current motor on the front. Double the torque and double the power, more traction, with a few more pounds; The cars have to be software limited.

Yes, it would be software limited so as to not compete with the P variant of the Model 3 or the S/X 75D. But even if it weren't, off-the-line torque of the PMSRs isn't great. AWD helps off the line, but not as much as you might think because as soon as the car starts accelerating, there's massive weight transfer to the rear, so the torque that the front motor can transfer to the ground is limited.

 

[Swampgator]

I just don't understand how the AWD it would not be way faster they use the same current motor on the front. Double the torque and double the power, more traction, with a few more pounds; The cars have to be software limited.

In drag racing 100 lbs is about equal to 10hp or 1/10th in the 1/4 mile.

AWD will still be current limited by the battery.
I personally think though that RWD model 3 can do 4.2 seconds and that the power is being artificially limited at least until they get up to full production speed. Then a software update will uncork it.
As for AWD I think it can do around 4 flat, maybe 3.9 if they let it. Agree is will use 2 of the same PM motors.
P version will be an induction motor in back and PM in front. Will be able to hit low 3s if they allow that to happen at Tesla.
I think once they are making 5k+ cars a week on Model 3 they will uncork the RWD versions and not care if Model S sales suffer. By that time they should have a major interior refresh of Model S anyhow.

 

[Swampgator]

Let's put this into context a little from a business perspective:

4000 Model S's a month at ASP of 110K and 25% margin = 110M a month gross profits for Tesla
20,000 model 3's a month at ASP of 55K and 15% margin = 165M a month gross profit.

Right now they cannot afford to have Model S sales drop and so far they have not. Hence the underselling and I believe "corked" performance for Model 3.
But once they are up to volume they can easily afford to do so. And if they can get to 10K a week eventually they will hit their 25% margin goal and this brings around 550M each month in GM. At that point what does a 50% drop in Model S sales really mean?

 

[kgclark]

Let's put this into context a little from a business perspective:

4000 Model S's a month at ASP of 110K and 25% margin = 110M a month gross profits for Tesla
20,000 model 3's a month at ASP of 55K and 15% margin = 165M a month gross profit.

Right now they cannot afford to have Model S sales drop and so far they have not. Hence the underselling and I believe "corked" performance for Model 3.
But once they are up to volume they can easily afford to do so. And if they can get to 10K a week eventually they will hit their 25% margin goal and this brings around 550M each month in GM. At that point what does a 50% drop in Model S sales really mean?

On the subject of uncorking, I'm very surprised that Tesla doesn't charge for this, especially given that it requires a service visit. If they had started selling new S/X models uncorked, then offered previous owners an uncorking retrofit for a nominal fee of $500-$1000, I think most people would have happily opened their wallet and Tesla would have had an influx of much needed cash/profit.

Now that they've set the precedent for free uncorking, people are going to expect it and will revolt if they ever want to start charging.

 

[PhaseWhite]

AWD will still be current limited by the battery.
I personally think though that RWD model 3 can do 4.2 seconds and that the power is being artificially limited at least until they get up to full production speed. Then a software update will uncork it.
As for AWD I think it can do around 4 flat, maybe 3.9 if they let it. Agree is will use 2 of the same PM motors.
P version will be an induction motor in back and PM in front. Will be able to hit low 3s if they allow that to happen at Tesla.
I think once they are making 5k+ cars a week on Model 3 they will uncork the RWD versions and not care if Model S sales suffer. By that time they should have a major interior refresh of Model S anyhow.

I don't think a rear induction motor is needed to hit low 3s 0-60, and I'd prefer 2 of the higher efficiency switched reluctance motors since we know they are much less prone to overheating. I'm really hoping Model 3P is a great track car with acceleration in the class of a P85D for around $75k so I can justify buying one over a used PxxD Model S

 

[Swampgator]

I don't think a rear induction motor is needed to hit low 3s 0-60, and I'd prefer 2 of the higher efficiency switched reluctance motors since we know they are much less prone to overheating. I'm really hoping Model 3P is a great track car with acceleration in the class of a P85D for around $75k so I can justify buying one over a used PxxD Model S

Well, you may have missed Elon saying that the front motor and rear motor for model 3 are of different type.
I can't remember where he said it, maybe a TED talk, but he definitely did.

 

[PhaseWhite]

Well, you may have missed Elon saying that the front motor and rear motor for model 3 are of different type.
I can't remember where he said it, maybe a TED talk, but he definitely did.

Source? I am definitely not aware of this but am super curious if there is a source you can provide.

 

[Krash]

Well, you may have missed Elon saying that the front motor and rear motor for model 3 are of different type.
I can't remember where he said it, maybe a TED talk, but he definitely did.

There is this rumor on the topic. Actually that whole thread is interesting.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Using an induction motor as the second motor (either front or rear) would make a lot of sense. They torque sleep more efficiently and are cheaper. It seems like the only disadvantage would be overheating in extreme conditions (track).

 

[Swampgator]

Source? I am definitely not aware of this but am super curious if there is a source you can provide.

I still can't seem to remember where he said this. My recollection is he was sitting down with Franz answering questions. I am 100% sure he said this though. It was well before Model 3 launch, probably late 2016 or early 2017

 

[voip-ninja]

I still can't seem to remember where he said this. My recollection is he was sitting down with Franz answering questions. I am 100% sure he said this though. It was well before Model 3 launch, probably late 2016 or early 2017

Eh, human memory is quite fallible. I did a Google search and couldn't find any evidence of any such sit down where Musk & Franz were taking questions.

 

[favo]

No specs yet, but:
Elon says AWD and Perf orders start at end of next week!

 

[Olle]

this pic shows different motor front and rear. or is it same motor with different inverters? (source gas2.org)

 

[Swampgator]

Eh, human memory is quite fallible. I did a Google search and couldn't find any evidence of any such sit down where Musk & Franz were taking questions.

I'll put my memory up against Google search algorithms any day.
When it is shown I am correct next week, please reply to this post with your thoughts

 

[voip-ninja]

this pic shows different motor front and rear. or is it same motor with different inverters? (source gas2.org)
View attachment 300483

My memory could be sketchy but I believe in a previous thread it was indicated that Tesla appeared to just be using a picture of the internals from the Model S as a placeholder for that picture of the dual motor configuration.

The good news is we should know a lot more about this option late next week, including performance/range differences, cost difference and what the motor type is!

 

[PhaseWhite]

No specs yet, but:
Elon says AWD and Perf orders start at end of next week!

Forgive the wild speculation but I wonder if this relates to previous comments about a short burn incoming... Could this will be another mini capital raise opportunity? Tesla could announce some amazing specs and start taking a bunch of new deposits for the Model 3 P model (and possibly a large deposit for a Signature edition)? I think the demand for Model 3P is under appreciated. Lots of Model S owners know this is going to be an amazing car for about Model S entry price.

Probably with specs a like nimbler P85D (insane) with the latest tech for the price of a 75D S. Who am I kidding.. Take my money!!!

 

[Olle]

My memory could be sketchy but I believe in a previous thread it was indicated that Tesla appeared to just be using a picture of the internals from the Model S as a placeholder for that picture of the dual motor configuration.

The good news is we should know a lot more about this option late next week, including performance/range differences, cost difference and what the motor type is!

Nope, this pic is of the Model 3 internals. There are lots of cues, the main ones being the shape of the battery and the rear motor sitting ahead of rear wheels, instead of aft of rear wheels (as in MS)

 

[Candleflame]

AWD will still be current limited by the battery.
I personally think though that RWD model 3 can do 4.2 seconds and that the power is being artificially limited at least until they get up to full production speed. Then a software update will uncork it.
As for AWD I think it can do around 4 flat, maybe 3.9 if they let it. Agree is will use 2 of the same PM motors.
P version will be an induction motor in back and PM in front. Will be able to hit low 3s if they allow that to happen at Tesla.
I think once they are making 5k+ cars a week on Model 3 they will uncork the RWD versions and not care if Model S sales suffer. By that time they should have a major interior refresh of Model S anyhow.

doubt they will uncork the 3 that much. it's also about drivetrain protection which will be expensive to fix for so many 3s under warranty.

 

[Swampgator]

Eh, human memory is quite fallible. I did a Google search and couldn't find any evidence of any such sit down where Musk & Franz were taking questions.

crickets.....

 

[PhaseWhite]

I'm holding out for a Model 3 AWD and possibly considering a P model depending on price so I've been doing a lot of speculating recently: When it comes to the front motor design Tesla has two options: Use the same motor powering the rear wheels up front in the M3 or leverage the small motor used today in the Model S. One reason they might use the Model S motor is that it should be more efficient at highway speeds than the permanent magnet motor design used in the M3. The M3 rear motor is rated at 192KW, while the Model S small motor is rated at 185kw. So let's assume the worst case, motors would be able to support a combined 377KW. This is practically the same power output of a Model S90D which can achieve a 4s 0-60 time.

Some quick back of the napkin math shows that the M3 AWD, with it's lower curb weight and with the same power output as a Model S D should approach P85D performance by it's self.

This leads me to believe that the Model 3 AWD vs Model 3 AWD P may only differ in software (corked vs not corked) and higher expected warranty liability costs.

See here: Calculator: 0-60 mph
For both configurations use: Drive Type: AWD, Transmission: Dual Clutch, HP: 505 (377KW)

1. Model S90D: Weight: 4800LB, 0-60: 4.08s
2. Model 3 AWD: Weight: 4000LB, 0-60 3.5s

Bottom line I think Model 3 AWD will be limited to a 4.2s 0-60 (And we might see a further bump in Model S specs) and the Model 3 P AWD will clock in at 3.5S. Notably the Model S100D has recently been clocked at 3.5-3.6 0-60 in real life despite the current 4.2s sandbagging from Tesla's official stats.

What are your thoughts on the performance differences we'll see between the AWD models?

Patting myself on the back here a bit but wow.. this post aged quite well in light of recent announcements:

1. Model3P 0-60s 3.5s (Called it exactly)
2. Model3 AWD > 4.2s (Ok this was easy)
3. Model3 using small Model S induction motor (Speculated)
4. Model3P and Model3 AWD are using the same motors and the difference is mostly software. (With more validation according to Elon). (Speculated)