-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
M3 issue in the Colorado Mountains
- Thread starter spinbackwards
- Start date
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
I found my tire pressures increase very little in the snow/ice, even if I'm tooling along at 55 mph or so. That's why I'm liking the 46 PSI cold in the Pirellis. Because even after a drive in the snow they are still 46 psi (47 psi tops). If I run less pressure the tire doesn't hold it's shape as well and it doesn't grip as well, particularly noticable in the corners. Now if I go on a sporty drive on cold bare pavement they will cruise from 46 psi right up to 50 psi on the TPMS. That's maybe 2 psi higher than ideal for dry pavement grip but it still works very well.
Since you posted this about the "beastly" performance of your Model 3 in the snow in December:
I found my tire pressures increase very little in the snow/ice, even if I'm tooling along at 55 mph or so. That's why I'm liking the 46 PSI cold in the Pirellis. Because even after a drive in the snow they are still 46 psi (47 psi tops). If I run less pressure the tire doesn't hold it's shape as well and it doesn't grip as well, particularly noticable in the corners. Now if I go on a sporty drive on cold bare pavement they will cruise from 46 psi right up to 50 psi on the TPMS. That's maybe 2 psi higher than ideal for dry pavement grip but it still works very well.
Since you posted this about the "beastly" performance of your Model 3 in the snow in December:
Well, that got me thinking about your tires. Because I doubt there is anything wrong with your car (unless you are showing error messages) and the P3D is great in the winter nasties.This thing is a beast in the snow, completely covered roads and the P3D- with winter tires performed amazing.
Some winter tires are susceptible to wear patterns that dramatically decrease snow traction. This can happen if they are called upon to do a lot of very hard accelerations on pavement. The tread blocks can wear in such a manner that they don't grip very well under acceleration any more. The same problem can develop under less strong acceleration in low traction situations (like mixed snow/ice/pavement). The problem is made worse by running tire pressures on the low end of the pressure spectrum. Fortunately, my Pirelli Sottozero 2's don't appear to be very susceptible to this but, just from the appearance of the tread, I would say the Michelin X-Ice are. I'm thinking they are not cut out to deal with the awesome power/torque of the P3D. Because the same tires were working awesome for you back in December. So, a rational person has to ask "What has changed". Another clue that this is your problem would be if braking on snow and ice is better than accelerating. The car stops great on snow/ice but has trouble while on the throttle.
I would up the pressures to 46 PSI cold and accelerate like a grandma for the next 1,000 miles. Also, avoid spinning the tires in low traction situations, at least while accelerating. Alternatively, you can do multiple successsive threshold braking events from a high speed to reverse the wear patterns. Make sure the anti-lock brakes are engaged through the entire stop. This will wear the tread blocks into a shape that is more conducive to getting grip while on the throttle on snow and ice. 8-10 high speed (at least 80 mph) to 0 mph stops should be enough to notice some improvement. To reduce wear on your brake pads this would be best done when you have full regen available.
And pump those tires up a bit more! I've seen a lot of terrible tread wear patterns on winter tires that could have been avoided with a few more PSI. And I've never seen a treadwear problem on tires that were kept in the upper end of the PSI range.
Regardless of whether you take ANY of this advice, I'm fairly confident your issues are tire related. While it's possible something is wrong with your car I really doubt it and a proper functioning Model 3 with decent winter tires should be awesome in the snow and ice.
silentcorp
Member
I will try and add air to see if that helps but these are brand new tires - they have less than a thousand miles on them and I don't gun it really with them on. I've been driving in terrible winter weather for almost 25 years now and have never had these types of problems. The car lets itself slide out for over a full second before I feel any traction control kick in, it's incredibly scary compared to every other car I've owned. Thanks for the advice, I'll give it a shot but am still thinking something else is wrong here.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
To be completely accurate, they are not "brand new" tires anymore, at least not in the same sense as when you said "This thing is a beast in the snow, completely covered roads and the P3D- with winter tires performed amazing.".
silentcorp
Member
That was hero snow, light fluffy and easily packed. Once ice is added to the mix my car handles like an 84 pinto it seems.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Considering that you are a very experienced snow and ice driver for over 20 years, I would have thought you might have considered the type of snow you were in before attributing it to the "beastly" capabilities of the Model 3 and it's tires.
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
I missed the last storm travelling, but about 10 days ago I can tell you that the car is designed to fish tail and then correct. I was coming to a stop slowly on regen mostly and feathering the accelerator 4 time to get me there caused 4 fish tails. It always corrects, but it is an adrenaline spike each time (not the good kind). On past cars, that momentary break loose is followed by spinning and worse. I think it is by design and should be for sport mode only. Drift racers love that rush, but I choose to get my adrenaline rush elsewhere.
silentcorp
Member
Ah yes, I should have listed the exact type of snow conditions before sharing my experiences. Thanks Dad!
In my experience, which seems to match that of some others who have posted here, I'd say that the Model 3 Dual Motor slips to an excessive degree before the traction control systems kick in, but that the traction control systems do work very well to keep you going. The traction control systems seem to be rather slow to engage. The result is a very uncomfortable feeling car that keeps moving when some others don't, with the car slithering around like a snake while trying to accelerate or go up hills, and hanging the tail out on turns. This behavior doesn't seen to be affected by the type of tires being used; all that changes is the level at which the car slips and traction control engages. The best solution seems to be to do everything very slowly so that the traction control systems can keep up a bit better.
Last Friday was the worst ice conditions I've ever experienced. It took an hour and ten minutes to drive 10 miles near my home. About a quarter of all the cars I passed on the road had actually slid off the road. Another 25% or so were simply incapable of moving or could only move a few feet at a time. People who got out of their cars and tried to walk were falling down left and right. I'm running Sottozero 3's and was able to keep moving in a controlled fashion. The car stilled slid around more than I would like, but at 5 to 10 MPH, it just doesn't slide that far before the traction control kicks in. Also, the stock Michelin Primacy MXM tires on snow and ice are absolutely terrible; the Sottozeros are in a completely different league. Of course, chains can be a great equalizer.
As a comparison point, my Jeep Wrangler on Goodyear Duratracs seemed to have very slightly less overall traction than my Tesla, but it's manners were much better, and I was able to control it easier than the Tesla. I went out to help a couple of people who had gone of the road, and I drove on a number of the same roads I took my Tesla on. The bottom line is that while the Tesla was able to make it, I was far more comfortable driving my Jeep in the same icy situations, and that ease of control allowed the Jeep to effortlessly go places where the Tesla struggled.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I don't get adrenaline rushes from winter driving anymore. If no one is in front of me I'll drive the sloppy wet slush in one constant slide, as fast as is safe. It's actually relaxing when in a car as predictable, responsive and with as much tactile feedback from the tires as the Model 3.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying you should have listed the type of snow, just wondering why you were gushing about the cars snow performance if you knew it wasn't even a challenge for a lesser vehicle. It would be like a World Cup Downhill racer taking his new racing skis on a bunny hill and gushing about how "beastly" they performed in the snow.
That is what I experience as well. Also, don't try to correct the skid before the traction control kicks in; it will just shoot you back the other way if you do. Our experience seems to be dramatically different from what StealthP3D has posted. Either our traction control systems work dramatically different from his, or there is some difference in conditions, although I can't imagine what that would be.
silentcorp
Member
Or someone who had their first experience in the new car and snowy conditions in the mountains, it could have been that as well. Also, it did behave great on hero snow, what I wrote is not incorrect. Now I've had more experience and on icy conditions it doesn't behave nearly as well. Not sure why you are being combative here my friend.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I would put it differently. I would say the experiences you two have shared are dramatically different from most other winter driving experts (myself included) that have reported on Model 3's winter performance. Like the Mad Hungarian who raves about the control and winter performance of the Model 3 as well as just about every winter driving video I've seen on the Model 3.
Is it possible that the winter tires you guys mounted up are not up to handling all the weight well (even if rated for it)? Another possibility: I know the Model 3's electronic DSTC system was programmed with the Sottozero 2's. Maybe that's part of it too. Tesla recently modified the slip detection algorithms to deal with the squirmy treads some winter tires are afflicted with. It could be that it accomplishes that by de-tuning the slip detection when it detects "squirmy" tires making it slower to respond to slips and slides. My Model 3 is telepathic and reacts more quickly and less obtrusively than any other car I've driven. I noticed this first when pushing wet corners hard, long before my car saw it's first winter storm.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Not combative, just trying to make sense of your wildly different accounts of how the Model 3 handles winter conditions.
You know, I'm more than a little tired of you belittling the experience of myself and others around here, and that's more than just two of us by the way. Your posts make it quite apparent that you don't know half as much as you think you know, and you obviously don't have the personal experience that a number of other people around here have reported. Suffice to say that a lot of what you have posted here regarding the issue has been rubbish. Your resorting to an "appeal to authority" with your references to "Mad Hungarian" to back up your position, is just plain weak.
Here is just one example of your nonsense. You say that "the Model 3's electronic DSTC system was programmed with the Sottozero 2's". Logically, this is nonsense since the default tire on a Model 3 is the Michelin Primacy MXM4; that is the tire that the DSTC system would have been optimized for, not the Sottozero 2's if your statement were true. The fact is that Tesla sells the Model 3 with Michelin Primacy MXM4 tires for 18" wheels, Continental Procontact RX for 19" wheels, Michelin Pilot Sport 4S for 20" tires, the Pirelli Sottozero 2 for 18" and 20" winter tires, and the Pirelli Sottozero 3 for 19" winter tires. Optimizing the traction control system for a particular brand and model of tire is obviously NOT what Tesla has done with the Model 3.
The Sottozero 3's I am using have an XL load rating. Tire pressures from 39 to 46 PSI cold have made absolutely ZERO difference to the car's behavior in slippery conditions. The Tesla's traction control system is also slow to respond in my experience. I have time to recognize the slide and apply a correction to the steering before the system intervenes with it's own correction. That is not a quick reacting system; I should not be able to so easily beat it. Also, I don't call a system that allows the tail to slide out 2 to 3 feet before abruptly applying a correction less obtrusive. It's more like in your face.
P.S. In the Mad Hungarian video that you linked to, he states that the he is using Nexen Wingard Sports in the video.
Last edited:
silentcorp
Member
Ah I get it. So I had my first experience in snow and rather than post about it here I should have said "well I know worse conditions exist so I probably should anticipate the car doing worse then" eh? You make little to no sense! Thankfully the "ignore" feature on these forums works really, really well!
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
You need to grow a thicker skin. Your claim was that my experience with the Model 3 was the outlier. I simply pointed out that the majority of people have been having exceptionally good experiences with Model 3's winter performance and capability.
Well, if that's the only example of my "nonsense" then you better come up with some better ones. Because I didn't say or imply Tesla only used one tire to program their electronics. Obviously, they used summer performance tires, all-season radials and winter tires (and different sized rims) to program and validate their electronic systems. But they didn't use "squishy" treaded winter tires. We know that because those kind of tires upset the Model 3's slip detection as evidenced by the limited regen that required an emergency software update fix. And that could be part of SilentCorp's problem (the detuning of the DSTC slip algorithms due to squishy tires). Tesla has not hid the fact that they developed and validated the winter traction using Pirellis. So if this is my "nonsense" then you need to chill out. You are coming across as being very angry, emotional and overly personal.
And the huge disparity between the speed and sensitivity of the DSTC of your experience and mine is why I'm looking for answers. It's not nice to belittle and get personal of someone who is looking for answers to the problems you are obviously having.
That's true, He has at least two sets of winter tires that he switches between on his Model 3. And he's had a great experience with both sets. If I recall, his take was that the Nexen tires have more ultimate snow/ice traction but the Pirelli's offer more balanced, all-around traction on a variety of winter surfaces. But mostly that the Model 3 performs extra well in the slippery stuff over all.
No need to make this get personal! We can disagree on technical matters but I don't really like you jumping down my throat.
Last edited:
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not going to belabor the point - I'll take you at your word that your initial two favorable posts about Model 3 winter performance were just overly enthusiastic responses of a new owner. I just wanted to understand why your first two experiences matched most peoples favorable experiences but the following ones were so vastly different.
One thing that changed between your very favorable experiences and your later unsatisfactory experiences is the software update for regen with winter tires. And since your complaint is with the traction control, this makes a lot of sense.
Something to think about.
FYI, they stopped making the Pinto in 1980.
Similar threads
