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TBH I think you're missing the bigger picture. No, of course VW won't suddenly hit the market with loads of EV models, but they will increase the number of models rapidly year on year. They are investing $91 billion in R&D for EVs in the next few years. This is a massive amount by any standard, and makes the $5.4 billion that Tesla invested in R&D from 2010 - 2018 seem downright paltry. Do you seriously think that they are going to spend this vast amount of money just to produce a few concept cars that will never actually see a production line? The reality is that in a few years, sooner than I think most people imagination, they will not be reliant on their ICE sales. And in 20 years time, or more likely sooner, they will be selling NO Ice cars at all in Europe and other significant markets. Tesla does still have the edge at the moment, but I very much doubt it will in another five years.

VW have not committed to $91bn EV R&D, they have committed to $91bn cumulative EV Cost of goods + Opex + Capex + R&D. R&D is only a very very minor part of this. It is an extremely misleading number put out by VW purely for PR (plus parroted without critical thought in media such as Reuters).

Why ICE OEMs are handicapped relative to new EV companies
  • EVs will be lower margin products for ICE OEMs for several years. EV product launches will heavily cannibalize a brands equivalent higher margin ICE car creating a large disincentive for high quality EV launches. Currently all ICE OEMs sell as few EVs as possible while meeting their legal emissions mandates. This is why their cars are all low volume, sub standard offerings, and is unlikely to change for the next 5 years.
  • At ICE OEMs most car components and most of the production process is outsourced. This reduces share of the value chain and reduces profit per car. It also makes the company much less agile to rapid changes in technology.
  • Tesla designs all of its components in-house which means it can develop unified software across all of the car components. This software is constantly refined through data collection from its car fleet. Around half of Tesla's c.40% miles per KWh improvement in recent years has been from software rather than hardware. ICE OEMs cannot do this because their components and software are outsourced to multiple different companies.
  • EVs only share 10%-20% of components and production process with ICEs.
  • Sales channel is outsourced to dealerships who are not incentivized to sell EVs. Dealerships make a majority of their profits from maintenance revenue, which is much lower for EVs and requires different expertise. This profit sharing with dealerships also lowers profit per car for the OEMs and lowers the EV breakeven point.
  • ICE service networks and service technicians do not have training in electronics and battery tech and are not able to service EVs without significant investment and significant new hires.
  • The key IP and barrier to entry in the auto industry has been engine design and lack of funding for car startups. Engines are now redundant and Tesla has proved the investment case for investing in EV disruptors.
  • ICE OEMs have a 50 year+ culture of working towards minimal annual incremental improvements rather than rapid innovation. Not suited to the rapid change needed to follow the EV/battery & motor experience curves.
  • Unionized and inflexible to automation and modernization.
  • Significant historic pension and other liabilities built over 50+ years.
  • Own $trns of legacy ICE assets, many of which will have to be written down as part of the EV transition.
  • Mostly trying to fit EVs into their old production lines and existing designs, EV companies have flexibility to design from scratch and make full use of the potential safety and ease of manufacturing improvements.
  • Own a short term loan portfolio of ICE leases and auto loans which needs to be refinanced continuously, but the underlying assets will depreciate rapidly with the EV transition
  • Shareholders value short term profits, dividends and share buybacks and are not supportive of short term pain for a long term vision, or investing heavily in the future.
  • Traditional brands are tarnished with a history of killing 1-4 million people per year from pollution, in some cases cheating their legal mandate for profit.
So in summary, I think it is very unlikely VW or any of the existing leading automakers can catch Tesla in EV technology. Tesla are 3-5 years ahead and moving more quickly. And for things to change ICE OEMs will have to change their entire business model and culture which have been largely static for the past 50 years.
 
This has gone way OT. I thought the initial comparison was to do with whether someone would buy a second hand Tesla (keep residuals up) or buy a new EV from likes of VW, Kia, Hyundai or whoever else has a long range BEV at that point in time and nothing to do with New vs New.
 
TBH I think you're missing the bigger picture. No, of course VW won't suddenly hit the market with loads of EV models, but they will increase the number of models rapidly year on year. They are investing $91 billion in R&D for EVs in the next few years. This is a massive amount by any standard, and makes the $5.4 billion that Tesla invested in R&D from 2010 - 2018 seem downright paltry. Do you seriously think that they are going to spend this vast amount of money just to produce a few concept cars that will never actually see a production line? The reality is that in a few years, sooner than I think most people imagination, they will not be reliant on their ICE sales. And in 20 years time, or more likely sooner, they will be selling NO Ice cars at all in Europe and other significant markets. Tesla does still have the edge at the moment, but I very much doubt it will in another five years.
VW does not have “the next few years”. Yeah, they are spending a ton (or they say they are) on EV development, but EV development is done. Tesla finished it. 300-400mi range, 15-20 minute supercharging, 100mpge+, $40k. The rest is just around the edges (nobody needs 500mi range, or 5min charging or 0-60 in 1 sec, or 200mpge). What Tesla is spending money on is FSD. FSD makes a single car into 5 cars. Tesla will have that done when VW has it’s first real EV equivalent to a 2014 Tesla in production. Why would you choose a VW EV that costs the same vs a Tesla that has 5X the value because it can do 5X the work (robotaxi, self drive back home so someone else can use it). How long can VW survive selling only nostalgia and panel gap FUD?
 
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It's pretty simple.
Money won't guarantee anybody anything.
Only talents will produce innovation.

Which company would you work for if you are one of the talents?
VW (who used to be a fraud and seems continued on that path for quite some time)? Don't think so.
Tesla? Hell yeah.

And especially for software engineers, Tesla is the go to choice if you want to work for a car company, there is simply no other alternative.

Enough said
Elon Musk's Tesla, SpaceX top list of most attractive employers for engineering students
 
This has gone way OT. I thought the initial comparison was to do with whether someone would buy a second hand Tesla (keep residuals up) or buy a new EV from likes of VW, Kia, Hyundai or whoever else has a long range BEV at that point in time and nothing to do with New vs New.

I think Tesla M3 residuals will remain pretty strong over the next 3-5 years. Any new BEV priced in the £20-30k bracket (to compete with a used M3) is going to be very much a budget model in every respect. For that sort of money in the ICE world today you are looking at pretty tame offerings compared to an M3. I don't see how that will change when a few more cheap EVs arrive. I would expect the VW EV offerings in the next few years to be more expensive than their direct ICE equivalents. The M3 actually looks like something of a bargain compared to it's ICE competitors today.
 
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For a laugh I just specced up an eGolf and it came to £41k with comparable options to an M3. Considering the woeful performance and range it's a no-brainer to go with an M3. You would actually have to be barking mad to choose an eGolf today!

Im sure the VW ID will be a lot better (it needs to be!), but the specs VW are currently touting for it look no better than a current M3. For their longest range version (77 kWh) they are forecasting 242-341 mile range depending on spec (WLTP). Hardly ground breaking for a car that doesn't even exist yet.
 
TBH I think you're missing the bigger picture. No, of course VW won't suddenly hit the market with loads of EV models, but they will increase the number of models rapidly year on year. They are investing $91 billion in R&D for EVs in the next few years. This is a massive amount by any standard, and makes the $5.4 billion that Tesla invested in R&D from 2010 - 2018 seem downright paltry. Do you seriously think that they are going to spend this vast amount of money just to produce a few concept cars that will never actually see a production line? The reality is that in a few years, sooner than I think most people imagination, they will not be reliant on their ICE sales. And in 20 years time, or more likely sooner, they will be selling NO Ice cars at all in Europe and other significant markets. Tesla does still have the edge at the moment, but I very much doubt it will in another five years.

I would like you to be right ( big ev fan) but I just don’t see it. Obviously there is room for many BEV car manufacturers in the future. VW will be one of them. As to how disrupted they get in the transition, that is hard to quantify. I personally think the pain will be tremendous and very hard for the OEMs to fathom or swallow, much less react appropriately and swiftly to the challenges ahead.

Wake me when VW has got their battery factories humming. If Tesla loses any advantages it has now it will either be because they fell asleep at the wheel (damn autopilot) or because the competition has leapfrogged. I find both doubtful.

Would love to see real overwhelming commitment to battery production across the board from all OEMs.
 
Apple iPhone with apps vs fixed feature phones. Netflix online vs Blockbuster. Amazon vs Walmart.

Developing good software is really hard. Once the right software and infrastructure are in place though, software approaches can steamroll incumbents of any size.

The reason is backwards compatibility, which is an even bigger problem than software. The incumbent’s customers, processes, and products are incompatible with the new approach, so every change must be retrofitted and compromised to be compatible with what’s there. Bigger incumbent = bigger problem.

Meanwhile, the upstart keeps infusing their software driven paradigm into every single product, service, and customer. They move at full speed with no boat anchors to slow them down, with customers who embrace the new way of doing things, instead of holding them back.

Tesla’s cars all have the cameras and sensors for FSD and software extensible UI to control nearly all functions. They’ve surrounded that with a deeply integrated backend and a worldwide charging network.

Integration simplifies and enriches the user’s experience, so new features like Sentry appear on old cars and new, and existing features like AP improve automatically. OTA software updates replace recalls. On top of that, Tesla performance and handling are top notch.

You *never* hear someone say that they wish the braking on their BMW will magically change so it slows to a stop at a red light. But I expect this will eventually happen on my Tesla, which drastically changed what I expect from a car.

To BMW/Mercedes/Toyota customers, this is completely unnecessary. To Tesla customers, any car that can’t do this seems antiquated.

That is why BMW sees no demand for EVs from their customers, while that’s the only demand that Tesla sees. They’re both right, but one will lose while the other gains.
 
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I wasn't going to post this just yet but I have spoken to DE and they cant give me the RN number because it gives me the ability to change the order in the app and Tesla have told them not to give it out.

This has also highlighted a potential issue though :( I may not even have an order. It sounds like two orders were placed the same time for their last allocation and they aren't sure if I got it or the other order. So either I have it which is great for me but potentially bad for someone else or someone else has got it and I cant get one.
 
That's a bit odd. I ordered and handed over my RN to the lease co, but even before I did that, because I selected lease I can't change anything without a call to Tesla, it's all locked down as far as I can see

Yeah i dont get it either, the whole process seems to be clear and mud but thats taken second place now due to the fact I may not even have an order to track!

lease deals are disappearing fast for the model 3, last week i could have order a performance model for pretty much the same money as the long range i ordered but i resisted all of that in hope id get this one sooner o_O
 
Yeah i dont get it either, the whole process seems to be clear and mud but thats taken second place now due to the fact I may not even have an order to track!

lease deals are disappearing fast for the model 3, last week i could have order a performance model for pretty much the same money as the long range i ordered but i resisted all of that in hope id get this one sooner o_O

When will they confirm if your order is booked?

Still some good deals with Octopus
 
When will they confirm if your order is booked?

Still some good deals with Octopus

They are going to let me know by the end of the day, they are speaking to Tesla at the moment and trying to work it all out.

Do you know what sort of prices Octopus are offering for P-? I would be paying around £470 per month for my current LR order with 12k miles a year. I had a look on their website but could see figures just the option to get a quote, I am switching my energy to them at the moment so the 8k miles free charging looked interesting.

I found one other lease company that has the performance model listed on their site with 10k miles for £450 per month but when i phoned he said the website might not be up to date for the new month yet and they would have to contact funders for up to date figures but its still possibly an option.
 
They are going to let me know by the end of the day, they are speaking to Tesla at the moment and trying to work it all out.

Do you know what sort of prices Octopus are offering for P-? I would be paying around £470 per month for my current LR order with 12k miles a year. I had a look on their website but could see figures just the option to get a quote, I am switching my energy to them at the moment so the 8k miles free charging looked interesting.

I found one other lease company that has the performance model listed on their site with 10k miles for £450 per month but when i phoned he said the website might not be up to date for the new month yet and they would have to contact funders for up to date figures but its still possibly an option.

I’ll ping you a link with some prices from Octopus in, all current :)
 
OctopusEV Performance Model 3 (P-)

2 year Personal Contract Hire 8k miles

Initial payment: £3,140.04 including VAT

23 monthly payments: £523.34 including VAT

Total : £15,176.86


2 year Personal Contract Hire 10k miles

Initial payment: £3,317.82 including VAT

23 monthly payments: £552.97 including VAT

Total : £16,036.13‬


Difference over term 24 mths , 5k pa vs 10k pa : £2,298.13

The P111D value is £54,840.00

Cost: 12,718.31/54,840.00 = 23.19 %

edit ,,, excess mileage at 5k pa over 10k is 4.44 for the next 10k miles , so it actually cheaper to take a 5k pa initial and pay the extra !
 
Thanks for that Dave, unfortunately that push the monthly cost up that bit more than id like, its would be an extra £80 a month although the initial is a bit lower, ill probably need at least 10k miles a year.

Ive had a look on leasing.com and spoke to carleasespecialoffers earlier today, nice guy and willing to help. I told him to hold off for now and ill see what DE can do, didnt want to waste his time if I dont need to.

No proper update from DE yet but sounds like they have managed to sort something with Tesla so hopefully a better update tomorrow, I hope its a good.

I'm sort of without a car at the moment, I can borrow vehicles most of the time but its not ideal especially as work is busy and im having to go out more, I havent bothered to sort anything else because Tesla was show June / July delivery time, a bit optimistic I know but we have just had the expense of buying a house as well so I'm trying to keep costs down.

Fingers crossed the news from them tomorrow is good.