Ahh, thats why. I could tell, easily.
Same to you! Maybe that will unfreeze your door handles.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
M3 Performance Plus thoughts @ 14k miles
- Thread starter spinbackwards
- Start date
So you decided to not purchase what is arguably, the best Performance car for the money and one of Tesla's best offerings due to not wanting to waste an additional 1.5% of that purchase price on Tires. It is literally less than $1k on TireRack for Michelin Pilot Sport All-Season's for the 20".
If your sole reason is "Tesla doesn't offer my tires", then just buy the tires. This type of excuse baffles me.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
Why does someone's reasoning have to be an excuse? It's their own personal cost-benefit analysis.
Did it take electrons out of your battery? Tread off your tires? No?
Shrug it off and keep moving. Unless you're the accountant for some of these people, it's not particularly anything you need to get spun up over.
What baffles me is Tesla refusing to sell a car equipped to customer specs, especially when it comes to tires. You can choose any paint, interior, and wheels out the wazoo on the model s and x, but when it comes to the 3, nope can't change the tires big no no.
Why would I pay a car company 10k extra to have to go out of my way and spend another 1k to order tires. I'm not going to buy a car brand new if it doesn't come exactly how I want it.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I understand this. I bought the P3D- because I didn't want the big wheels and the big brakes which are pretty redundant on a street car when you have the regen braking. Also, the big brakes limit the selection of 18" wheels which I think is the ideal rim size for the Model 3 in terms of performance. But they didn't offer the P3D- when MarkM3 was ordering so he got the AWD Model 3.
That makes perfect sense to me.
15 miles @ 250 Wh/mile is 3,750 Wh or 3.75 kWh. 3.75 kWh is also 5% of 75 kWh. That's enough to run two 1500 Watt space heaters on high for 1 1/4 hours.
While the Model 3 cabin heater is nominally 6-7 kW, that is its maximum draw. Since it is a PTC heater, named for its positive thermal coefficient of resistance (i.e., resistance increases upon heating), it's maximum draw quickly falls as the element heats up.
But 10 seconds is a nice approximation.
I guess sarcasm detection is low around these parts.
SammichLover
Banned
Because you didn't notice they had, and continue to have, much bigger logistical fish to fry than setting up and handling a huge selection of tire choices?
Am I the only one that has been happy with the auto-wiper functionality? I live in the Midwest, and have seen a decent bit of rain and some wintry mix with temps around 0F-30F. Aside from the capability of the factory all-season tires, I’ve been very pleased with the car in the winter. (Snowy mix tomorrow, so knock on wood!)
Don’t forget the cost to service those fancy big brakes. But do I get a little jeally whenever I see a 3 roll up with the bigger rotors... yes, yes I do.
Because no auto manufacturer does. They work with tire vendors to get volume pricing, and they offer options balanced for their customer market.
Because you want the performance edition. And people that buy the performance edition usually understand that ultra performance summer tires don't work in the winter. If you want a car with all season tires, buy the one that isn't the performance edition.
SammichLover
Banned
Maybe?
I find it acceptable a lot of rainy days. Not always, though. I've worked around that via using the left stalk button and learning how to no-look and/or quick glance select manual setting on the wipers. I'm to the point of finding it workable but get how it will be pain for a lot of people.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
They could just offer the 19” wheels as a no cost option. No new parts needed if the rotors were the same thickness. My theory is that the peformance version was originally going to have the same size brakes (as they do on the S) but they realized that they would melt under track use. Then they didn’t have time to source rotors with the same hat thickness and the 18” wheels had already been designed for the smaller brakes.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Speaking for myself, I went with the P3D- (when it was availble) because I wanted the insane power/acceleration but I didn't want the 20" wheels and I DID want the special low drag calipers. The low-drag calipers are designed with special piston seals that pull the pistons back further from the disk to insure no light contact between the pad and rotor when the brakes are not applied. Since I will not be taking my Model 3 to the track, even the base brakes and rotors are overkill. I also wanted to fit any 18" wheel I chose on there without regard to caliper clearance. I didn't want to pay a lot of money for wheels/tires I would have to sell right off the bat (what a PITA). Plus, the 18" OEM wheels are actually very light and strong. They have less rotational inertia than ANY DOT approved 20" rim that will fit the Model 3. Big wheels and low profile tires are primarily for looks. If you really want to race, get some nice light 18" rims and performance tires and leave the 20" poser wheels for the posers.
Now there are some armchair Internet experts out there that theorise it's stupid to have all that power on tap without bigger brakes. But they don't know what they are talking about. You only need bigger brakes if you are exceeding the thermal capacity of the regular brakes. I haven't even come close to doing that, I primarily use regen braking. These same Internet armchair theorists surmise that you must not be using all the power of the Performance "tune" if you're not bringing the smaller brakes past their thermal capacity. Again, I say complete hogwash. The small brakes and rotors are more than adequate to haul the P3D down from any reasonable speed you will reach on public roads and when used in conjunctiion with regen braking, they can do multiple threshold stops in a row without fading, particularly in the cooler climate that I do most of my driving in. But I don't do multiple stops from high speed because I don't need to throw away all that power as heat radiating off the disks. The beauty of electromagnetic regen braking was one of the strong attractors to an EV like the Model 3. And, no, this does not mean I don't find the eye-popping acceleration of the P3D useful. I'm a motorcyclist and have two motorcycles that have almost identical 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile times. There are plenty of opportunities to use the amazing acceleration on public roads in a safe, responsible and even legal manner. Or not.
So I would have to agree that it's too bad Tesla doesn't offer the P3D with different brake, tire and wheel options. Oh well, I have what I want, a very capable, yet high efficiency Performance Model 3 that can rip up the dry tarmac as well as be insanely competent on snowy roads in a winter wonderland. If I needed to by another now that the P3D- is no longer obtainable, I would probably settle for the AWD rather than deal with the big brakes and 20" wheels. I would miss the extra thrust but not THAT much.
Last edited:
That's possible, I suppose. Warping rotors from excessive heat is an expensive mistake.
My guess is it was likely more to do with the two-piece design than anything else. The center hat's thickness isn't that big a deal, but usually thinner is lighter and that's what you're going for. Though, by that token, they'd have wanted to use lighter weight wheels too.
Anyway, the 18" rotors being single piece means the hat needs to be thicker to prevent deforming. So the problem might be the reverse of what you're saying but the outcome was the same.
There are a lot of people that should have made the same wise choice you made, but didn't because hey got carried away.
It's likely that the performance brake kit will be overkill on the track anyway. I don't think we've seen any brake-specific testing yet, have we? One thing I do know for sure, in cold temperatures, the performance brakes are LOUD under light braking, especially in reverse. Like, wake the neighbors up at night loud. Not as loud as the pads I have on my Subaru, but I can imagine several people complaining to Tesla about it.
It sounds like you did your research before buying. I know when the P3D was announced with the 20" wheels, there were a bunch of posts about selling the wheels and getting something else. I thought it was hilarious that people figured they were going to find wheels to fit that fast, and be able to sell their 20s for top dollar when the market was suddenly flooded with dozens of them at a time.
Clearly the 18" option gave the most room for flexibility, and you made the right choice for your needs.
The Tesla 18" wheels are a surprisingly decent wheel, I agree. And the 20s really are about the looks more than anything else. I certainly wouldn't want to hit rumble strip after rumble strip on a track day with them. The vibration through the tiny sidewalls into the car would shake your teeth loose.
Is that not all of us?
This is probably more of a hold-over from ICE upgrade situations. When I added a lot more power to my Subaru, I upgraded my rotors, calipers, and pads to match my expected needs. But that was more to do with bringing the car to the track than anything else. There is no road-legal driving situation you should find yourself in that requires massive rotors and pads.
With an EV you'd certainly be even less likely to find a situation that requires upgraded brakes on a street or highway, that's for sure. Though I will say, the regen system does taper off and eventually limit itself quite a bit with heavy usage like driving up and down mountains. But that's a rare event given the number of miles driven by people around the world.
You can usually spot these experts in forums posting about how much they hate being hassled by the cops, and where they can find cheaper insurance rates for people with multiple license suspensions and speeding violations. I know a few of them personally.
It's also unlikely you find yourself going from 65+ to 0 to 65+ over and over again. Usually when traffic is backed up on the highway, you'll putter along for minutes yelling at the idiot with their blinker on, or shaking your head at the person texting with 7 car lengths in front of them. Then it'll speed up for a bit, and slow back down for minutes or hours. If you find yourself going from fast to slow to fast again, you're driving like an idiot, and no matter what brakes you have, you're bound to wrap the car around something on the side of the road anyway.
Useful is likely a big stretch. Fun? Certainly. Useful? Eh.
My motorcycle's 0-60 time is listed as "Yes". But it is comfy as a couch cushion.
There are plenty of opportunities to use the amazing acceleration on public roads in a safe, responsible and even legal manner. Or not.
Fun fact, there are jurisdictions with rules about excessive acceleration. I had a friendly officer offer to tack that on to a speeding ticket the one time I got pulled over in my other car. Then again, "It's only illegal if you get caught", or whatever the kids say these days.
I think you have to pick one of these options. Do you want your car sooner from a company making money, or do you want every combination of brake/wheel/tire that anybody would want from a company struggling to stay alive that delivers the car a year later than they already did?
I get what you're saying, but I suspect it's more reasonable to think that the kind of person getting the Performance edition would do the exact math you did and figure out if it made sens for them. I think the P3D- was an okay compromise, but they didn't offer the 19" wheels with it. Why not? It's much more likely someone would have wanted the 19s and regular brakes on the most expensive Model 3. So there's clearly some more thought Tesla could have put into this, but they're at the weird intersection of making cars people will complain about the efficiency of while those same people will complain about the premium parts or whatever. The original poster, in my opinion, was an inevitability for Tesla. Wanted to spend top dollar, but didn't want to research what it meant for his situation.
This is all to say they were damned no matter what. Then again, I'm one of those P3D owners that hasn't asked for a $5k refund and I rarely use supercharging. So I'm obviously a unique breed.
Oh well, I have what I want, a very capable, yet high efficiency Performance Model 3 that can rip up the dry tarmac as well as be insanely competent on snowy roads in a winter wonderland. If I needed to by another now that the P3D- is no longer obtainable, I would probably settle for the AWD rather than deal with the big brakes and 20" wheels. I would miss the extra thrust but not THAT much.
I'm a very happy P3D owner, and I have 18" wheels on my car with aggressive winter tires. I knew what I was getting into when I purchased the vehicle, because I thought to myself "Winter is going to come, I should look for tires. Oh, and I'll need wheels if I want to actually get decent tires". I know "car culture" has been dead in the US for a long time, but I do think it's the bare minimum of responsible behavior to know about the vehicles I buy, and how to operate them safely in the winter. I presumed that people living in more severe winter climates than I do would have been that much more aware, but obviously not.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
"Useful" is a very versatile word. As in "eye-popping acceleration is a useful tool to have more fun"
The State of Washington has a relatively short but interesting history as being freedom loving radicals who stood up for worker's rights and were anti-corruption while being sensible, pragmatic, somewhat educated and community minded. I'm looking back to years before I was born, the 1920's to 1950's. The result is that our traffic laws are sensible and not so authoritarian in terms of having "gotcha" rules on the books. There are no laws prohibiting "excessive acceleration". There are already rules prohibiting recklessness and so such rules are uneccessary. A cop would have a hard time making a charge of reckless driving stick in court if all you did was accelerate hard with no squealing of tires and no excessive speed. And there are plenty of opportunities for that with State Highways that have a signal controlled intersection every mile or two.
I'm one of those P3D owners that hasn't asked for a $5k refund and I rarely use supercharging. So I'm obviously a unique breed.
We are a rare breed, not a unique breed. I also didn't bother with the $5,000 refund and I've Supercharged less than $10 or $12 worth since taking delivery. And I drive right by a Supercharger (only 100' away) at least twice a week.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
I have no regrets with the P3D-.
It was outfitted to get me through a New England winter. In a few weeks, I'll be looking to buy some more aesthetically pleasing 19s or 20s for summer driving, and do a full wheel swap. In the fall, I'll put legit snows back on the 18s and snap the aeros back on to try and maintain SOME of the winter range loss.
It was outfitted to get me through a New England winter. In a few weeks, I'll be looking to buy some more aesthetically pleasing 19s or 20s for summer driving, and do a full wheel swap. In the fall, I'll put legit snows back on the 18s and snap the aeros back on to try and maintain SOME of the winter range loss.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Also a fictional one...but the myth doesn't seem to want to die.
https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedi..._Whitepaper_B1-Warped-Brake-Disc-8-2018_1.pdf
Carroll Smith said:
SammichLover
Banned
I've resigned rotor damage eventually happening for me, with the accompanying $1000 touch per front/rear set of rotors. Or potentially, it just becomes clear that even if they aren't failing entirely they regularly get too hot to maintain my braking.
I've now got to the point of my rear brake surfaces also oxidizing blue/yellow from heat. I've probably staved it off further by swapping out the front stock pads but as I get better at driving and get the things in place to have near full SOC while driving my fastest, thus my top speeds in straights rise, I'm going to get closer to the point that the rotors won't handle it.
The rear rotors are the ones that worry the most at this point. The reason is when the Model 3 goes into Park it applies the rear brakes while the fronts can still rotate free. I've got to make sure I get the rears cool enough before I let that happen or the pressure on hot brakes will warp or leave a pad spot on them, and it is really tricky to keep the Model 3 out of Park.
Last edited:
Well that doesn't make sense. How do they fund the state if they don't have myriad confusing rules?
It should be pointed out that the GT40 program was using race specific rotors. You can call this a myth, but I had Subaru (2004 STI) and GM rotors warp on me from using them on the track. The GM ones were unusable and the Subaru ones just made annoying noise under braking. I switched to a slightly better designed DBA rotor and didn't have the problem again. I've since upgraded to a different package altogether, but that's neither here nor there.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I guess you missed part of the quote?
Carroll Smith said:
And keep in mind- he's writing a technical paper for a brake manufacturer- a company who would have a pretty big financial interest in selling you "better" rotors if they really did warp.
instead they've taken a more honest route, and offer a number of technical papers explaining how/why brakes actually work, and why and how some folks might still benefit from their parts without having to repeat myths to do so.
No, you didn't. Again- properly mounted rotors don't warp.
You had it misdiagnosed as that by somehow who didn't understand what was actually happening (which is uneven pad transfer).
He explains in the paper what actually happens, why, and how to both prevent it and, depending how soon you catch it, fix it, without needing new parts.
I'd highly recommend you go back and actually read the article- it's pretty informative.
Similar threads
- Article
