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M3 Tear Down by Munro & Associates. Pictures By Motor Trend

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Tomski, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. Tomski

    Tomski Member

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  2. jsrawa

    jsrawa Member

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    That poor Model 3...
     
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  3. BioSehnsucht

    BioSehnsucht Model 3 LR

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    The details revealed by Motor Trend from Munro are enlightening - as in they shed light on some of the things Munro said and why they said it. We now have confirmation that the teardown vehicle was an early vehicle (and per a response from Tesla in the same article, a 2017 built one), so all the complaints about build quality are unsurprising and can be relatively ignored (that's not to say a car coming off the line now is perfect, but there are definite improvements).

    Similarly, the "is it profitable" math is making assumptions to get the cost of the base car from the premium car, from an early build that likely was built less efficiently, cost-wise, as Tesla tends to tweak things continuously ... so while it might turn out to be accurate for the car they took apart (and even that is debateable based on what assumptions they made about battery costs for example), it is almost certainly not accurate for cars coming out of the factory now, never mind future vehicles that are actually base models.
     
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  4. adaptabl

    adaptabl Banned

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    Maybe the build quality is slightly better now as more people are working on assembly. There will not be any changes to the body structure as a new set of crash test data would be needed. A car manufacturer is not free to start changing body parts without going thru a re-certification process. Now they are removing automation and adding more labour to the cost of the car. I suspect the cost has increased since the early builds.
     
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  5. alloverx

    alloverx Member

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    Hard to say unless they pull apart a more recent one.
     
  6. Phrixotrichus

    Phrixotrichus Member

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    As someone with an industrial background I must tell you that you and all other "this is just an early production vehicle" sayers VASTLY overestimate the room for improvements a manufacturer with a running production has......While stuff like the gap dimensions or any modular part of the car can certainly be tweaked or replaced the heavy body frame and basically anything else that stems from design/engineering errors rather than material flaws will stay till the car gets a major overhaul......this is NOT some handmade low volume car!

    ........no
     
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  7. R-123

    R-123 Member

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    The cost might have increased vs what was forecast, but not what it cost in 2017 to build Model 3. If automation it was working and cost efficient then it'd stay. It wasn't. So instead of using that failed automation they were putting the cars together manually on a line not prepared for it. No way that cost less than doing it on a line that got adjusted for a more manual assembly (as it supposedly is now).
     
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  8. Buran

    Buran Member

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    Anyone else that find it peculiar that the two side rows with fewer "bricks" of cells seem to be of equal lengh as the inner ones from a pack enclosure poiny of view? The pictures Electrek shared Tesla Model 3: Exclusive first look at Tesla’s new battery pack architecture showed some content here, but in the picture here it looks like a "spacer". If the 23 vs 25 bricks from Electrek is right, and there is space, why not fit 1 or possibly 2 more per side module? Downgrading to not overshoot Model S/X range?
     
  9. bhzmark

    bhzmark Supporting Member

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    That what was most of Munro's criticism in his first video was all about. And he went on about that again in this recent video. His only criticism that is not remediable is the one specific criticism that there were rear body panels that he thought weren't necessary and too heavy. Mostly he just confessed he thought that they weren't necessary. Maybe in actual crash testing, Tesla determined that they were necessary and helpful and worth the cost and weight. But that is very different from him and his goofy panel going on about how they stuck their pinky in a panel gap on that 2017 build.
     
  10. voip-ninja

    voip-ninja Give me some sugar baby

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    #10 voip-ninja, Apr 26, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
    You are misrepresenting some of what he said.

    He specifically said that the Tesla body is at least 200 lbs heavier than it needs to be. He is extremely knowledgeable about how car unibodies are designed and he almost definitely would have mentioned the heavier weight being needed for safety. He didn't. The goal with unibody design is to make the body as light as possible while still having it strong enough to perform superbly in crash testing. Every extra unnecessary pound of weight actually makes your car worse in a crash if it isn't performing a crash absorption specific function.

    As others have stated, things like panel gap tolerances can be improved in manufacturing, things like the body being inefficiently designed (13 plates welded together to make a section) and much heavier than it needs to be CANNOT be substantially improved through iterative design changes as they would have to re-submit the car for federal crash testing, etc., if they did that.

     
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  11. mongo

    mongo Well-Known Member

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    23,25,25,23 gives 96 cells in series which matches the voltage/ series cell count of the non-60kWh packs.
     
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  12. voip-ninja

    voip-ninja Give me some sugar baby

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    For those who don't want to read the article, Motor Trend got a nice response from Tesla on Munro criticisms, it's worth noting that they ignored the question of profitability of the car which is probably a smart move on their part;

     
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  13. Buran

    Buran Member

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    Aha. Thanks!
     
  14. mtndrew1

    mtndrew1 Member

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    #14 mtndrew1, Apr 26, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
    My takeaway from the Munro video (watch all the way to the end!) is that the Model 3’s drivetrain, suspension, battery pack, electronics, and autonomy chipsets are all two or three generations ahead of everyone else in the industry.

    Simultaneously Tesla’s coachwork (stampings, body assembly, efficiency of materials allocation) is two generations behind everyone else. Not really a surprise here.

    One of these is much easier to fix than the other and Tesla is known to redesign and improve parts from one week to the next on S and X. If the strengths were reversed and the tech was a kludge with stunning coachwork I’d be scared for the viability of the company.

    Incidentally I rented a December 2017 build Model 3 in early February and it had a number of wonky panel fits and uneven gaps. Nothing I would have made a stink about, but it was assembled about as precisely as my 2012 Volt. Not fantastic but tolerable.

    I took delivery of my April 2018 build Model 3 last Friday and it’s...perfect? At least very close to perfect. I’d put its build precision up against a BMW or Audi without shame, it’s really that good. The amount of improvement from December to April took me by surprise.
     
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  15. jsmay311

    jsmay311 Member

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    Seems like an uncharacteristically measured response to criticism for Tesla. :D

    I was half expecting them to call Munro and Associates an "extremist organization". :rolleyes:
     
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  16. omgwtfbyobbq

    omgwtfbyobbq Active Member

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    They would?

    https://www.safercar.gov/FAQ

    The Bolt was optimized for weight, but that's straightforward because it's the only car on it's platform. If Tesla's going to build the P-series and/or Model Y with a portion of the 3's BIW, odds are they'll have to beef up some parts of the 3 compared to if the 3 were the only car they were selling to use some or all of it's BIW.
     
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  17. slipnslider

    slipnslider Member

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    From their analysis, the problem with the model 3 is hubris.
    The mechanical and manufacturing problems come from the fact the tesla thought they could ignore centuries of coachbuilding experience and do it their own way. They apparently were infected by the silicon valley mentality of "new = better!" and "high tech > low tech" ignoring that many times things have been done the same way for a long time for a reason, and more tech often creates more problems (cough cough PHONE KEY!)
    Elon has admitted this to some degree with his confession that they were assuming robots would be better than they are.

    This engineer's conclusion is that if they had built the drivetrain and suspension and electronics the way they are now, but used traditional means for the mechanics and manufacturing, they would have wiped the floor with even toyota. He was unsure if it was fixable at this point.
     
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  18. mtndrew1

    mtndrew1 Member

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    In other news, a company with over one hundred years of auto building experience is struggling to launch two utterly conventional products...

    Ram, Maserati Levante Launches Disappoint Outspoken FCA CEO - Motor Trend
     
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  19. Darwin

    Darwin Member

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    Gotta love this quote: “I’m not sleeping on the floor,” said Marchionne, even though he has done it in the past. “You have to be Elon’s age to do it. I’m too old for that crap.”
     
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  20. Brando

    Brando Active Member

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    I suspect buyers are worried about what they PAY.

    I suspect buyers are NOT worried if Tesla made money on their particular car.

    Volume (quantity produced per month or quarter) is always a factor.
    (IF there is a break even number, it must be at some volume point, right?)
    (anyway, Tesla problem how many or how few people they use. SEC filed documents are public - those really interested in the details should read - it may take a little practise, looking up some terminology - but all of you can certainly quickly master - it will add to your understanding, I think)
     

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