So basically it comes down to the fact that you want to believe you purchased something that is "screened to be performance eligible" aka - special - even when faced with the reality that your car was just an AWD that received a software unlock. Talk about cognitive dissonance.
M3P- . What is it, how to order it, etc.
- Thread starter shiftkenny
- Start date
So basically it comes down to the fact that you want to believe you purchased something that is "screened to be performance eligible" aka - special - even when faced with the reality that your car was just an AWD that received a software unlock. Talk about cognitive dissonance.
robo_robb
Member
Did you say, "Miatas"??? I miss mine already (sold it in June to make room in the garage for my LR AWD)…
Good to see fellow (former) Miata owners in here! I just sold my ND for the M3. They will forever hold a special place in my heart.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure why you don't understand this. My theory is that AWD and Performance are essentially the same thing but that there are some AWD that don't meet the spec to be software unlocked.
It's not that complicated and I think it will be proven correct in time.
As an owner of a LR RWD from May 2018 and a Stealth P3D from September of 2018, I've probably been following the clues and the technology a lot more closely than you have.
Time will tell which theory is correct. In time, I expect the SiC MOSFET to eventually all meet the spec for Performance but these high-performance, high-efficiency power transistors that drive the high-frequency motors are still a relatively new technology and they keep improving and becoming more consistent with each successive generation.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I think we understand it pretty well.
You've made up a theory not only based on 0 real world evidence, but contrary to all actually available since actual production start evidence, and you're STICKING TO IT NO MATTER WHAT.
FWIW I had an interesting chat with a Tesla rep about my stealth car to be delivered in 8 days. It was coming from Vegas to Denver, so I said if it gets here sooner I’d be ok with taking delivery as soon as Thursday. The rep told me that although it’s in Vegas, it first needs to be shipped to the factory before it can be sent to Denver. Interesting and makes me wonder if that means it was a standard LR AWD that is getting upgraded at the factory. Seems to support a simple software flash at the service center isn’t all that’s required to unlock the performance upgrades.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
They're certainly not shipping an already built car to the factory, pulling out already assembled parts, swapping them for other parts, and then shipping it again, to capture a 2k vehicle upcharge. That'd be insane. (not to mention the dumbest, most expensive way possible way to DO a DU swap if it actually needed one, since the SC where the car already is can do them).
More likely your delivery person has no idea WTF they're talking about. (that was certainly the case for the half dozen I dealt with during my own delivery process last year).
I have been working in the Automotive electronics industry for well over a decade - at a tier one manufacturer; in purchasing and have dabbled a bit into quality and engineering as my position requires me to wear different hats.
If Tesla has multiple specs attributed to the same part number then I would have some serious concerns about their process controls - even if they were being differentiated in their MRP. Any automotive quality or process engineer with two brain cells to rub together would take issue with your theory.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
At Tesla, things could work...differently than you are accustomed to. It's a very interesting place! I have no idea what they do though.
In any case, I would add that my rear drive unit on my P3D does not have a part number! Meaning, the plate is blank. So, I assume there must be a scanned QR code somewhere else on the drive unit (with the appropriate info) that is used at some point during assembly. Effectively that would be a part number, of course. But it's not like there is some guy reading off part numbers on drive units and putting them in cars. They're scanning them, presumably. Or they are all the same so they don't even need to scan them.
Still, interesting that the part catalog now has two distinct remanufactured rear drive units with (presumed) different current limits (630A vs. 840A). That's the first indication we've seen of an actual substantive difference in drive units (well, there was the 970 motor and the 990 motor...but the 970 never appeared). Of course, no way to know how/whether these will be installed in cars (and there would be no way to tell I don't think).
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
The SiC MOSFETs are not made by Tesla, they are manufactured by a chipmaker. The same part number has a rather wide range of tolerances from the manufacturer. Some can handle more current with less heat than others. Tesla could get bids on the same component while specifying a tighter tolerance but then the manufacturer's yield would go way down and the price way up. The tolerances vary, in part, because each MOSFET comes from a different part of the silicon wafer and SiC MOSFETs are sensitive to the variances in the wafer.
Rather than specifying tighter tolerances for the Performance models, or throwing out the bottom X%, Tesla has said they test them in-house for performance. The best ones end up in Performance Models. Tesla has not disclosed what percent of the AWD models have components good enough to become Performance models as that is proprietary. The reason Tesla doesn't give them different part numbers is that, for production flexibility reasons, they want to be able to use "overflow" Performance drive units in AWD models and it would not be fair for some AWD purchasers to get drive units essentially marked as "Performance ready" while other purchasers only receive drive units essentially marked as "AWD only".
If you are familiar with how much "noise" certain Tesla buyers make when they think Tesla has given a better deal to the next guy, you understand why Tesla does not go down that road. Imagine if both you and your neighbor purchased AWD Model 3's on the same day and for the same price. Then, while comparing notes you found out that Tesla had given your neighbor a car that was capable of being upgraded to a Performance model while yours didn't meet the spec. Once an AWD car is sold, Tesla will never allow the owner to upgrade it to Performance. In time perhaps the SiC MOSFETs will become more consistent. Tesla doesn't (currently) own a silicon foundry so you will have to blame the chipmaker for selling the SiC MOSFETs with such a wide range of tolerances. Currently, that's just a fact of the state of the art.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
<citation required>
this is utter nonsense that belies a complete lack of understanding of how any modern manufacturing systems work.
It's trivial, and common, to cross- list PNs as "alternatives"
So you just list the different P DU part number as an alternative to the AWD on and you get exactly the goal you list accomplished without the idiocy of using the same PN for functionally different parts.
This is not the first time this specific flaw in your argument has been pointed out to you.
So your story is they did it because people might be mad only SOME cars could upgrade... AND your story is ALSO that Tesla will never allow any of them to upgrade
And... that makes sense to you?
Really?
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
No citation required. This is currently a known property of all SiC MOSFETs. The gate resistance (heat) has more variability than other MOSFETs.
Not sure why you are being so stubborn on this point. Tesla will only allow an AWD to upgrade to Performance right up until the time of delivery (assuming it passed testing). It gives them a lot of flexibility to change the ratio of AWD to Performance to match current demand.
If they ever allow anyone with an AWD manufactured before now to upgrade to Performance, then you can tell me what a fool I was. I'm confident they will never do that.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
A citation is needed if you're claiming there is variability significant to Teslas use here. A claim you keep making without supporting in any way.
Because you don't seem to notice you are contradicting yourself?
You claim both that:
Tesla used 1 PN for all DUs even though it's an idiotic move from a supply chain, manufacturing, and repair standpoint... ONLY to avoid post-delivery owner upset that they find THEIR AWD can't upgrade to a P.
and
Tesla will never allow any AWD to upgrade post delivery to a P.
(well, to be fair, you did give one other reason- but it's even more nonsensical since parts management systems can easily handle alternative PNs so that's more of a complete non-reason from someone who has never worked with manufacturing or parts systems at all and doesn't know better)
Why wait?
We already know owners, last year and this year, got AWDs at delivery and then had the cars flashed to a P because that's what they actually paid for.
Including at least 1 guy who recently mentioned he drove off with it still being an AWD and got an OTA flash to the P later.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
If you doubt this, I'm not going to help you find it. It's a well-known property. As to the rest of your diatribe, it appears you are just being purposefully stubborn because you want to argue so I'm not going to help you there either.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Urbancowboy
Member
one4spl
Luke Smith - https://TSL43.info
There is no conclusive proof either of you are right. Neither is going to sway the other. You're adding a pile of noise to the internet and absolutely no value. Please do shut up.
No one knows for sure.
My guess (with no horse in the race) is they will offer a software upgrade for $3000 at some point to existing AWD owners but have no incentive to do it yet.
They will sell these P3D- cars as the new hot thing now, convincing potential buyers that these are a limited batch and next quarter when they need some cash to finish the year strong they will offer the upgrade on a limited time basis. So existing AWD owners ; have a little patience and maybe in Dec you can upgrade via software.
I do believe (but not totally convinced) it is just a software change, one added bit of evidence I will add is on this forum one of the first buyers of one was able to order one, change his mind the day before delivery and have them downgrade it just AWD at $2K less which the dealer did no problem for them. If these were special P3D- cars, the dealer would not have done that.
My guess (with no horse in the race) is they will offer a software upgrade for $3000 at some point to existing AWD owners but have no incentive to do it yet.
They will sell these P3D- cars as the new hot thing now, convincing potential buyers that these are a limited batch and next quarter when they need some cash to finish the year strong they will offer the upgrade on a limited time basis. So existing AWD owners ; have a little patience and maybe in Dec you can upgrade via software.
I do believe (but not totally convinced) it is just a software change, one added bit of evidence I will add is on this forum one of the first buyers of one was able to order one, change his mind the day before delivery and have them downgrade it just AWD at $2K less which the dealer did no problem for them. If these were special P3D- cars, the dealer would not have done that.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
It is just a software change, pretty much all of us agree on that. My personal opinion is there are only a few AWD's that fall outside the envelop to be able to handle Performance levels of current reliably. That could change with future generations of SiC MOSFETs but currently, the yield is negatively affected if the specs are too stringent. In any case, changing your P3D- to an AWD would be simple with no downside to Tesla other than the lost revenue consisting of the price difference between the two models. (since they have a surplus of P3D capable units relative to market demand).
tomas
Out of warranty...
When one member starts making every other post in a thread, saying the same thing over and over as if we are all too stupid to have understood it the first time, it degrades the thread, causes others to check out, and risks earning that member a bad reputation. I actually appreciate a good argument now and then, and definitely appreciate when people are passionate about what they believe... even if I don't agree. But at this point, IMO enough is enough!
