M3P - Who switched from a (true) sports car?

[butterscotch]

I drove a Cadillac CTS-V Wagon for 9+ years, bought it new in 11/2011 and I LOVE that car. Noisy, torque-y and the magnetic ride suspension is underrated - it was a great match for the car. I was raised on American muscle so it just speaks to my DNA (supercharger whine, anyone?). And, like true American muscle, you can't get all that power to the pavement. It'll break loose at the slightest bit of over-enthusiasm. It also gets 9 MPG in town.

I've had my 2020 M3P for a year now and haven't looked back. In daily-driving situations it does everything better than the Caddy - even before you consider the tech/features like autopilot etc. And my ANNUAL electricity bill to drive the M3P is roughly 1.5x what my MONTHLY gas bill was for the Caddy.

My only complaint about the M3P is that the suspension is kinda mushy, floaty, all the words everyone else has used here. But my wheels arrive tomorrow, and in my garage are the MPP camber & toe arms and the MPP KW v3 coilover suspension, which will go in next week. I'm looking forward to doing a review after that!

/TCP

I also ordreed KW V3 coilovers and am deciding if I should get the toe arms. What's the real benefit for the aftermarket toe/trailing/traction arms vs the stock ones?

Do keep us updated on the wheels and your feelings after you install the suspension and arms! I'm very curious about the same set up I'm thinking about installing as yours.

 

[butterscotch]

My previous cars were Audi S4, 2012 BOSS 302 mustang and 2017 GT350 mustang. I tracked both mustangs. My best time in the M3P is slightly better than the BOSS but about 3 seconds slower than the GT 350.



M3P destroys all those others at the drag strip. Best times — 1/8 = 7.29, 1/4 = 11.41.



M3P is simply the most fun car I have ever driven on the street. It is hard to describe accurately to someone who hasn’t driven one (y’all understand of course).



On the track it is a good car with one glaring problem — LACK OF COOLING. Yes, it could use somewhat better brakes, a bit less body lean, better seats, some camber. But, by far, cooling is the big problem. I get about 3 good laps with no traffic before something overheats and power is cut drastically.



MPP and others are working on cooling solutions and I greatly appreciate that. Last I heard none completely fix the problem for the M3P. With proper cooling all the car really NEEDS to be a decent track car is track pads and good DOT 4 fluid.



TESLA - PLEASE GIVE US A SOLUTION TO THE COOLING PROBLEM. The current situation is embarrassing.

I've tweeted about the cooling issue to Elon Musk to which he chose to ignore to tweet back. They really need to fix the cooling issue. M3P has so much potential they really shouldn't pass. A dedicated Tesla racing series will also help with future development of the car down the road.

 

[ngng]

I also ordreed KW V3 coilovers and am deciding if I should get the toe arms. What's the real benefit for the aftermarket toe/trailing/traction arms vs the stock ones?

Do keep us updated on the wheels and your feelings after you install the suspension and arms! I'm very curious about the same set up I'm thinking about installing as yours.

the benefit is that you can align your car

 

[butterscotch]

A 2nd gear would make a massive difference at high speeds.

Unfortunately, though, the downside to (any) EV right now is that we are still limited by the battery. Adding an extra 100hp now would result in even higher consumption and power would start to be limited by SOC even faster. At the point where we have a 150kWh+ pack and DC charging trackside that problem should cease to exist. Being able to run a full 30 minute session at full power with a 2nd gear will be pure bliss.

I'm hoping the roadster would have better cooling, 2nd gear and a bigger battery pack.

 

[MasterC17]

I also ordreed KW V3 coilovers and am deciding if I should get the toe arms. What's the real benefit for the aftermarket toe/trailing/traction arms vs the stock ones?

Do keep us updated on the wheels and your feelings after you install the suspension and arms! I'm very curious about the same set up I'm thinking about installing as yours.

I'm hoping the roadster would have better cooling, 2nd gear and a bigger battery pack.

Depends on your use case - street only you really don't need the arms. Track they are going to tighten the suspension and improve handling. The toe arms are nice because they allow for easy toe adjustment - but not needed.

Looks like the Plaid/Plaid+ is still using a single gear and achieving incredible quarter mile speeds. I think these new gen motors won't need a 2nd gear. The Roadster is likely going to use the same drivetrain, which I am sure has better cooling and of course a much larger battery pack in the +.

 

[Mash]

I also ordreed KW V3 coilovers and am deciding if I should get the toe arms. What's the real benefit for the aftermarket toe/trailing/traction arms vs the stock ones?

You change rubber bushings to steel uniballs - basically, under stress, it keeps wheel alignment better without perceivable NVH increase.
Rear in turns acts more predictable and tight.

 

[tcpilot]

What's the real benefit for the aftermarket toe/trailing/traction arms vs the stock ones?

@MasterC17 and @Mash have more or less answered your questions, but I'll add that if you elect to use a lower-than-stock ride height, the Camber arms are required. You can't get enough adjustment out of the stock camber arms to result in a correct alignment, and excessive negative camber will negatively impact daily driving and tire life.

 

[butterscotch]

Depends on your use case - street only you really don't need the arms. Track they are going to tighten the suspension and improve handling. The toe arms are nice because they allow for easy toe adjustment - but not needed.

Looks like the Plaid/Plaid+ is still using a single gear and achieving incredible quarter mile speeds. I think these new gen motors won't need a 2nd gear. The Roadster is likely going to use the same drivetrain, which I am sure has better cooling and of course a much larger battery pack in the +.

So in your opinion, with my likely 3-4 track day/ yr needs, max I will need is the camber arms for the front and the toe arm for the rear right? No need for trailing, traction arms?

 

[butterscotch]

You change rubber bushings to steel uniballs - basically, under stress, it keeps wheel alignment better without perceivable NVH increase.
Rear in turns acts more predictable and tight.

what's NVH? lol

 

[butterscotch]

@MasterC17 and @Mash have more or less answered your questions, but I'll add that if you elect to use a lower-than-stock ride height, the Camber arms are required. You can't get enough adjustment out of the stock camber arms to result in a correct alignment, and excessive negative camber will negatively impact daily driving and tire life.

Right, I understand the camber arm (for both front and rear) is needed and I plan to get them 100%. Just don't know if trailing/traction arms and spring arms are also needed for my 90% daily/10% (3-5 )track day needs.

 

[tcpilot]

Right, I understand the camber arm (for both front and rear) is needed and I plan to get them 100%. Just don't know if trailing/traction arms and spring arms are also needed for my 90% daily/10% (3-5 )track day needs.

@butterscotch if you're tracking the car, you might want to look into Mountain Pass Performance Front Upper Control Arms as they will give you very easy camber adjustment in the front. I likely won't track my car, so front camber adjustment is unnecessary for me. I will however need the rear camber arms, as I'm going for an aggressive stance.

eta: If I have some extra disposable income, I may go for traction & trailing arms, just for the bling factor . My only remaining purchase is likely the MPP Front Lower Control Arm Bushings, as those apparently provide an instant feel/response benefit.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

@MasterC17 and @Mash have more or less answered your questions, but I'll add that if you elect to use a lower-than-stock ride height, the Camber arms are required. You can't get enough adjustment out of the stock camber arms to result in a correct alignment, and excessive negative camber will negatively impact daily driving and tire life.

really depends on how you drive daily & or how your toe is set. I think only toe needs to be fixed after lowering, but that is easy w/ stock parts. the minimal camber gain is welcome. definitely not enough

...'aggressive stance' you should get UPP fronts. MPP doesn't add much camber imo. I just put mine on yesterday and my rear camber is about double my front with no shims, I want it the other way around

Right, I understand the camber arm (for both front and rear) is needed and I plan to get them 100%. Just don't know if trailing/traction arms and spring arms are also needed for my 90% daily/10% (3-5 )track day needs.

trailing and traction + perches are all I don't have. I'm doing every hill climb and autocross I can this year. don't think those are necessary- if you have too much money or if someone gave me a great deal on them I'd get them...I'd rather visit Taipei again than have those parts personally

 

[MasterC17]

@MasterC17 and @Mash have more or less answered your questions, but I'll add that if you elect to use a lower-than-stock ride height, the Camber arms are required. You can't get enough adjustment out of the stock camber arms to result in a correct alignment, and excessive negative camber will negatively impact daily driving and tire life.

FWIW the increased camber is not going to wear the tires to any measurable degree. The toe change, which will necessitate an alignment post-install, will absolutely cause edge wear on the tires. Camber will only cause increased wear at excessive angles (over 2 degrees, maybe more). The slight increase from lowering it will have no effect. Toe is the killer of tires, not camber.

 

[MountainPass]

what's NVH? lol

Noise
Vibration
Harshness

 

[tcpilot]

Toe is the killer of tires, not camber.

Got it, thanks @MasterC17. I had it backwards; I thought camber was what caused excessive edge wear.

/TCP

 

[MasterC17]

Got it, thanks @MasterC17. I had it backwards; I thought camber was what caused excessive edge wear.

/TCP

It's a very common misconception actually - I think most people get it backwards!

 

[JDMerica]

Got it, thanks @MasterC17. I had it backwards; I thought camber was what caused excessive edge wear.

/TCP

I mean if you're rolling around with your other Hotbois to a stance nation meet then yeah you're going to eat the inside of the tires but like C17 said the toe is like a cheese grater from the road because of it coming across at an angle.

 

[butterscotch]

really depends on how you drive daily & or how your toe is set. I think only toe needs to be fixed after lowering, but that is easy w/ stock parts. the minimal camber gain is welcome. definitely not enough

...'aggressive stance' you should get UPP fronts. MPP doesn't add much camber imo. I just put mine on yesterday and my rear camber is about double my front with no shims, I want it the other way around

trailing and traction + perches are all I don't have. I'm doing every hill climb and autocross I can this year. don't think those are necessary- if you have too much money or if someone gave me a great deal on them I'd get them...I'd rather visit Taipei again than have those parts personally

@Zextraterrestrial do hit me up next time you visit Taipei! get the vaccine first though.

 

[dfwatt]

I'm hoping the roadster would have better cooling, 2nd gear and a bigger battery pack.

Pretty sure those are all virtually guaranteed and the second gear I think has been confirmed. Can't get to a 250 mile top speed without a second gear. The real question I think is what are they going to do with the chassis because a warmed-over version of the S chassis just would not cut it at that price. I suspect they'll go with a new design, probably aim for significant reductions in unsprung weight.

 

[Mash]

Pretty sure those are all virtually guaranteed and the second gear I think has been confirmed. Can't get to a 250 mile top speed without a second gear. The real question I think is what are they going to do with the chassis because a warmed-over version of the S chassis just would not cut it at that price. I suspect they'll go with a new design, probably aim for significant reductions in unsprung weight.

As far as I know, second gear is not confirmed, but it's not needed and not welcome at all.
Once you have gears you start adding clutches and those kill directness, increases power loss, and so on.

When you have way more power you can shift top power to a higher speed.
When you have more money to spend on motors, you can have a more effective power range.
You also can have it at different speeds for front and rear motors.
Traction limits you at low speed, power at medium speed, air resistance at high speed.

Plus smarter motor designs, better cooling allows you to expand the power range further.

As far as I know, there are no good, compact, reliable, and reasonably priced variators designs to accompany high torque electric motors.
So most probably it will be single gear as usual.

If Rimac was able to reach >250mph on a single gear 120kWh 2170 cells, Tesla would be able to do it for sure.