M3P - Who switched from a (true) sports car?

[drpheta]

Change the shocks on the M3P to the fanciest ones on earth and skidpad number will still be 0.94G

Put a sticky street tire on them and both cars will do over 1.0G

Would the camber affect it to an extent, since rolling onto sidewall would affect skidpad results?

 

[jackmott]

Would the camber affect it to an extent, since rolling onto sidewall would affect skidpad results?

Yeah, and the M3P is very limited up front there. Handling tests that you see in car reviews are always kind of misleading:

• Alignment can make a huge difference, and some cars have tons of adjustability. Like a Corvette or GT3 Porsche can dial in over 3 degrees of negative camber if you want, but they don't get tested that way in most magazines/shows
• Tires make way more difference than anything! Ship a car with cheater tires and you will win handling specs (Pilot Cup Sport2 is famous for this!)
• Slalom numbers are better if you dial in the car for understeer, but car will feel worse overall to most that way

Really unless you are actually racing just drive the car and decide how you like it. If you like it you like it. The hellcat prolly drifts around a corner fine and feels great despite being a bit heavy and high.

 

[MyApprehension]

I’m switching from a 2016 Mazda Miata. It’s a sports car, just not a very fast one

 

[jdOTM3P]

500 wheel horsepower m4 here... the first thing i noticed was the turning radius, but i dont really see too much of a drop off outside of that. the car is still fast and its enjoyable just wish there was some noise

 

[S281X]

Skidpad numbers are almost entirely a function of tires. Any car no matter how heavy or designed can get good skidpad numbers with a fat sticky tire and a decent alignment. The subtleties of how cars handle transitions, tight slow corners, fast corners, bumpy corners, how the car's balance feels in various corners, how well the car can handle being driven hard for a while (do the tires get overheated and go to crap, etc) is all much more complex and nuanced, and where a big car like a hellcat is not going to do so nice in stock form. Nor does a Tesla model 3.

I'm well aware of the effects tires have on a vehicle, this is my industry by professional trade. I was responding to the comment about the Hellcat not being able to handle and comparing it to a M3P. Both cars on their OE tires, the Hellcat out-handles the M3P.

 

[tm1v2]

Hellcats are welcome here, this thread has always included any kind of fun-to-drive-fast cars that don't meet the classic definition of a sports car. The OP even listed many such cars in the first post.

 

[raptor5244]

I’m switching from a 2016 Mazda Miata. It’s a sports car, just not a very fast one

I owned a C7 Corvette Grand Sport, Tesla M3P, Camaro ZL1 and a Miata ND. IMO, the Miata is the most fun to drive on the street. 2300lbs, top goes down and you can wind out the gears on the street without risking your license. It is just tough to live with as your only car.

 

[MyApprehension]

I owned a C7 Corvette Grand Sport, Tesla M3P, Camaro ZL1 and a Miata ND. IMO, the Miata is the most fun to drive on the street. 2300lbs, top goes down and you can wind out the gears on the street without risking your license. It is just tough to live with as your only car.

Yeah we just recently had a little girl and it was an excuse to get into a tesla for the 4 seats for a car seat. I’m really going to miss it though. If I could afford it or had a 3 car garage, I’d keep it. It’s been my absolute favorite car.

 

[Zcd1]

For reference, the Hellcat Charger delivers .96G on the skid pad vs M3P's .94G, this is primarily a result of the active suspension in the Hellcat. No slouch around a track either with those figures.

Skidpad numbers are one thing.

Track lap times are another:

Laguna Seca (post 1988) lap times - FastestLaps.com

 

[S281X]

Skidpad numbers are one thing.

Track lap times are another:

Laguna Seca (post 1988) lap times - FastestLaps.com

I'd argue a variation of .03 second difference is more of individual skill and driving conditions, skid-pad is an identical test.

 

[Zcd1]

I'd argue a variation of .03 second difference is more of individual skill and driving conditions...

The M3P is 2+ seconds by the same driver at the Throttle House test track and 3+ seconds faster at Laguna Seca, even with the Hellcat driven by Randy Pobst, a professional, multiple-championship-winning racing driver and the Model 3 driven by someone nobody ever heard of....

 

[oreobbq]

Hellcats are welcome here, this thread has always included any kind of fun-to-drive-fast cars that don't meet the classic definition of a sports car. The OP even listed many such cars in the first post.

But we're talking about sports cars, not heavy land yachts.

 

[S281X]

The M3P is 2+ seconds by the same driver at the Throttle House test track and 3+ seconds faster at Laguna Seca, even with the Hellcat driven by Randy Pobst, a professional, multiple-championship-winning racing driver and the Model 3 driven by someone nobody ever heard of....

You are missing the point, are you aware density altitude affects vehicle performance? How about humidity and air temperature affecting the tire compound to the track surface, there are a hundred variables you can not control that can factor the outcome in both ways. When you look at a skid-pad and the way manufacturers measure it, it's a controlled environment in an easily replicable manner.

 

[gaiakai]

I'm not sure if it qualifies as a proper or pure sports car but I can definitely confirm it is a competent track car. I'm coming from a Civic Type R. It is pretty much a car that can do it all, daily drive relatively comfortably while still being ballistic on track. Albeit, at a relatively low price point.

The main reason why I'm switching over is that my new job requires quite the commute, and I'm not ready to relocate quite yet. As good as the Type R daily is, an EV will be even better. My father already has a Model 3 LR RWD with some decent modifications, so I already know what I'm getting into. Obviously, the aftermarket and trackside support for Honda will be hard to match but the new challenge is exciting. I'm sure I'll miss the manual and exhaust sound eventually, but I'm sure a P3D is just as fun in different ways (?). Either way, I look forward to the switch! I'll definitely miss some of the friends and connections I've made over on the Honda side. View attachment 806895View attachment 806896

I'm coming from a Civic Type R too! This Saturday will be a sad day when Carvana comes to collect her, and I'm definitely going to be missing that sweet manual transmission as well. After driving around in my girlfriend's LR for about 2 months though, I'm excited to see what the M3P can do. Work is slowly transitioning back to in office vs wfh, so the commute was a big factor for the switch to EV; as efficient as the FK8 is, damn near $7 a gallon just sucks.

 

[Zcd1]

You are missing the point, are you aware density altitude affects vehicle performance? How about humidity and air temperature affecting the tire compound to the track surface, there are a hundred variables you can not control that can factor the outcome in both ways. When you look at a skid-pad and the way manufacturers measure it, it's a controlled environment in an easily replicable manner.

Okay, now I understand - you're moving the goalposts now that your original point has been proven false. Troll away - I won't engage further.

 

[CKwik240]

You are missing the point, are you aware density altitude affects vehicle performance? How about humidity and air temperature affecting the tire compound to the track surface, there are a hundred variables you can not control that can factor the outcome in both ways. When you look at a skid-pad and the way manufacturers measure it, it's a controlled environment in an easily replicable manner.

Laguna Seca altitude is 105'. 3 seconds is a huge gap. Surely, different conditions can affect performance, but you seem to think that all "100 variables" are all only negative against the Hellcat.

I have a 2013 Chrysler 300S (related chassis). Just a V-6, but it's a pig of a car. It gets moving decent enough, and can tackle steady state cornering just fine with decent tires, but it is not nimble at all. The M3P has low cg and the mass is centralized a lot better which allows more of the tires' grip to go to lateral grip rather than rotating the car. It would be interesting to look at both cars' track data, but if we did, I think we'd find the Hellcat is relying mostly on its power in the straights.

 

[SleeperMP3]

I came from a heavily modified 2015/16 Audi S4, all 034 Tuning parts and ECU. This was the last of the True Supercharged cars. SC pully, Crank Pully Stage III. It was a beast and gas was always, well empty... She drank a lot of it.

I now have a MP3 Stealth and find the car very quick. Yes, it is fast, all cars are fast in their own right, push the right pedal a car will gain speed and end up going fast. Quick? That is the key point. HP VS torque. The tesla has lost in the latter department that make the car very quick. As many know my Audi and many of the cars people have listed are by all rights faster, but they are just not as quick.

I like to drag race and the things that matter are off the line 60ft, and what happens on the big end. The real equalizer is the 1/8 or 1/4 mi. track. We all know the Telsa is much quicker off the line and will out 60ft, most cars and continue on it's merry way. That said if running on a 3mi to 4mi runway, a lot of cars will reel in and overtake the tesla. On the big end Teslas will max out but (tuned) Fire breathing forced induction cars will keep pulling and pulling. What about Stock? Well let's go back to the name of this thread... I have a Tesla now. Cheers!

 

[S281X]

Okay, now I understand - you're moving the goalposts now that your original point has been proven false. Troll away - I won't engage further.

Excellent retort to not being able to articulate a constructive sentence to continue a debate with. I appreciate you bowing out.

Laguna Seca altitude is 105'. 3 seconds is a huge gap. Surely, different conditions can affect performance, but you seem to think that all "100 variables" are all only negative against the Hellcat.

I'll respond in two parts, first if you look at the structure of my response I claimed it can sway opportunity in "both ways" so I'm confused on how you took that as an opportunity to mistakenly claim I'm defending the Hellcat solely. I'm simply stating that comparing a track time that's within a margin of 3 seconds, there is a lot of potential outcomes based on conditional and realistic factors that we can not control locally when testing the vehicles. I only pointed out that the Hellcat's skid pad numbers are higher than the Model 3 Performance's, agree - disagree or indifferent, it holds true.

Additionally, the Hellcat Charger performed the Nurburgring in 8:58 while the M3P did it in 9:00, we can find anecdotal evidence of these cars battling over one another all over, hence why I am challenging climate/environmental and talent factors of the drivers.

Further into this, Laguna Seca might be 105' but density altitude plays a large role in combustion vehicle performance as every 100ft increase slows a vehicle down by .01 seconds, here is a current chart of the DA in Laguna where you can witness large variations - WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca - Weather History from Air Density Online.

I have a 2013 Chrysler 300S (related chassis). Just a V-6, but it's a pig of a car. It gets moving decent enough, and can tackle steady state cornering just fine with decent tires, but it is not nimble at all. The M3P has low cg and the mass is centralized a lot better which allows more of the tires' grip to go to lateral grip rather than rotating the car. It would be interesting to look at both cars' track data, but if we did, I think we'd find the Hellcat is relying mostly on its power in the straights.

Don't take my challenging comments as misconstrued, I'm aware that I am on a Tesla forum and the bias is going to sway heavily as such. I love my M3P and what is provides, it does exceptionally well and very predictable but the Hellcat is literally stupid fun and there is no doubt that the times it's putting down is a direct reflection of the power the car makes.

 

[CKwik240]

I'll respond in two parts, first if you look at the structure of my response I claimed it can sway opportunity in "both ways" so I'm confused on how you took that as an opportunity to mistakenly claim I'm defending the Hellcat solely. I'm simply stating that comparing a track time that's within a margin of 3 seconds, there is a lot of potential outcomes based on conditional and realistic factors that we can not control locally when testing the vehicles. I only pointed out that the Hellcat's skid pad numbers are higher than the Model 3 Performance's, agree - disagree or indifferent, it holds true.

No one denies that the Hellcat has better skidpad numbers. The argument against you was that the Hellcat tends to perform better in the straights than in turns. And your retort to that appears to be that the skidpad numbers are better on the Hellcat. And while they are, track results seem to indicate the overall performance goes to the M3P. By 2-3 seconds depending on which track. 2-3 seconds per lap on a track is huge. Especially since many of the factors that affect the performance of any given vehicle will affect both. But if we took your approach, the M3P had faster times at both tracks. "Agree - disagree - indifferent, it holds true. "

Additionally, the Hellcat Charger performed the Nurburgring in 8:58 while the M3P did it in 9:00, we can find anecdotal evidence of these cars battling over one another all over, hence why I am challenging climate/environmental and talent factors of the drivers.

That actually aligns with the argument being made that the Hellcat is more drag than turn. The ring has a lot of high speed straights which is exactly where the Hellcat would have an advantage. Smaller tracks with more turns tends to favor more nimble cars. That the Hellcat is 2-3 seconds behind despite having a rather large power advantage said a lot about where it's advantages are on a track. I would expect a Hellcat to perform better on an oval as well.

Further into this, Laguna Seca might be 105' but density altitude plays a large role in combustion vehicle performance as every 100ft increase slows a vehicle down by .01 seconds, here is a current chart of the DA in Laguna where you can witness large variations - WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca - Weather History from Air Density Online.

You're making a point based on 0.01s. That's 2 orders of magnitude of difference. It's not even worth arguing.

Don't take my challenging comments as misconstrued, I'm aware that I am on a Tesla forum and the bias is going to sway heavily as such. I love my M3P and what is provides, it does exceptionally well and very predictable but the Hellcat is literally stupid fun and there is no doubt that the times it's putting down is a direct reflection of the power the car makes.

No one is saying the Hellcat isn't fun. But it's just not as fun when you have to turn the wheel....

 

[Mash]

We made 7:44 BTG there on M3P. It's not a stock suspension or brakes or tires, but I doubt that Hellcat can come anywhere close even with those mods.