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M3SR+ or M3LRAWD

Subevo

Member
Sep 10, 2017
220
79
Scotland
Started off I wanted M3P+.
Then thought maybe better off with M3LR AWD as cheaper insurance and wont have fragile 20” wheels/tyres
Now I’m thinking M3SR+ as almost £9k cheaper than AWD and 90% as good.
Now back to M3P+ again.
anyone else Going round in circles..
 
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booyaka76

Member
Aug 19, 2019
282
231
Ayrshire
I toyed with the LR but in reality apart from maybe 1 or 2 journeys a year over 200 miles, the £9k in my pocket was more worthwhile.

99% of the year my driving is running the kids around locally, visiting clients at home where I may do 150 miles but have plenty of time in between appointments to find a local free charger, eat my lunch and watch netflix.

I go to Manchester from Ayrshire twice a year - superchargers will be used and probably take an extra 20/25 minutes on my journey - Again £9k in my pocket sounded the better option.

"Range is king" will be quoted at you but think about your last years driving - how often are you over 150 miles a day? If the answer is less than 10 times a year - the saving is worth it

That's my personal view.
 

ewoodrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2018
5,285
4,270
Buford, GA
If you are money sensitive, then stay away from the Performance.
For those that have never driven a P, the SR is an obnoxiously fast car when compared to just about anything else. And close to an equal for what's left.

With the number of charging options available in the UK, the SR+ is going to get you anywhere you want to go.

If you COMMONLY take a lot of long 300 mile trips or your daily commute is >130 miles, then they LR battery may be advantageous to you.

For most folks, you never use the capacity of the LR battery or the responsiveness of the 3P, so it's wasted money.

I'd never suggest that the AWD is 90% as good as the 3P. It's more like that 3P is 120% of the SR+ and 110% of the AWD.

There's really nothing that the Tesla is less than 100% of.
 

Rooster6655

Active Member
May 3, 2019
1,561
565
UK
Started off I wanted M3P+.
Then thought maybe better off with M3LR AWD as cheaper insurance and wont have fragile 20” wheels/tyres
Now I’m thinking M3SR+ as almost £9k cheaper than AWD and 90% as good.
Now back to M3P+ again.
anyone else Going round in circles..

Depends if you are price sensitive or not, if you can afford it go for the P+, the wheels are not as fragile as some you tubers (Who want views) will make out, yes expensive to replace but if you drive on well maintained roads most of the time I can't see a problem.

The power increase for the P+ is definitely worth it for the 25% higher price, yes you may not need the power all the time but the times you do will make it count!
 

Joelly

Member
Oct 29, 2019
473
203
United Kingdom
Started off I wanted M3P+.
Then thought maybe better off with M3LR AWD as cheaper insurance and wont have fragile 20” wheels/tyres
Now I’m thinking M3SR+ as almost £9k cheaper than AWD and 90% as good.
Now back to M3P+ again.
anyone else Going round in circles..
Yesss!!
Although not all 3. Just the SR+ and the LR. Although an e golf comes into my calculations.
SR+ - £400 a month
LR - £500 a month
E golf - £230 a month

Regular commute 40 miles daily, number of times driven over 150 miles in a day over the last year - 0
Number of times looking to drive over 150 miles a day when I have a decent car - 12.
3 year lease. Charge at work. Company car so everything included.
Someone help :)
 

anon37485

Closed
Jul 18, 2019
260
131
Earth
Yes, same. I went from wanting the SR+ to the P, then down to the LR.

My reasons for going for the LR over the SR+ were range, AWD, extra power, better sound system. My reasons for going for the LR over the P were lower insurance, slightly more range (maybe), smaller wheels/tyres/brakes should I need to replace them (£).

For me, the LR was the sweet spot, at least in my head. If money was no object, I'd have gone for the P.
 

Roy W.

Battery running low...
Jun 3, 2019
2,334
2,393
Derby, UK
Started off I wanted M3P+.
Then thought maybe better off with M3LR AWD as cheaper insurance and wont have fragile 20” wheels/tyres
Now I’m thinking M3SR+ as almost £9k cheaper than AWD and 90% as good.
Now back to M3P+ again.
anyone else Going round in circles..
Your £9k isn’t just getting you the extra range - as well as AWD you’ve also got the premium interior. The premium sound system is awesome!

The other big factor is the range reduction in the depths of winter. Particularly if the car is kept outside. You can lose up to 30% of your maximum range in winter.

I’m on my third EV. My first was a Nissan Leaf 24 with a realistic range of 80 miles in summer, 60 in winter. My second was a Kona electric, which in terms of range was actually better than the Model 3 is delivering. I admit to being in the “Range is King” camp :D

As long as you’re going to have a 7kW charger installed at home, you can plug in each night and start out with a full “tank”. You then only really feel the benefit of the LR battery on longer trips.
 

freekie

Member
Sep 10, 2019
260
109
UK
I was originally considering P then went to LR. To me an important factor is AWD as in my mind AWD is safer when driving conditions are not so good.
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,928
Suffolk, UK
how often are you over 150 miles a day? If the answer is less than 10 times a year - the saving is worth it

"You only need the range if you actually need the range" applies of course:)

But once a month I would definitely be thinking about Long Range ... over last 4-ish years with MS90 I have been out-of-range about twice a month. I winced at the cost of LR price-premium when I originally bought it, and justified it with Man Maths, but in practice the time saved has been very worthwhile.

A further issue that I perceive is Supercharger occupancy. During my ownership I have had to wait just once, and that was for all of 5 minutes, and I have had one other occurrence where I was last-man-in and someone else had to wait ... but that was at a 2 stall site (Ah! The Glorious Early Days !!). Model-3's will mean far more Supercharger occupancy over the next few years. I have recently changed to Raven which looks like it will mean my Supercharging drops to a couple of times a year, instead of two days a month

Comparing my old Longer Range 90 to the Shorter Range 75 that I could have bought (and saved a bundle on):

I have a regular journey Grantham Supercharger - York - Grantham. That is really tight for the 90 LR, but usually some traffic / roadworks makes it possible. Definitely not possible in a SR 75. The alternative is charging at Woodhall on the way back and that adds 15 minutes detour, an extra stop/go, and a few minutes more charging (for the detour).

For the 75 SR: ABRP suggests charging at Leeds, but that only has two stalls, so i would choose Woodhall instead which (in a SR 75) would add 25 minutes to the overall journey time.

Then there will be the times when I can reach destination with no charge on LR, but would need a splash-and-dash in the SR. Even a splash-and-dash adds 5 minutes getting into, and out of, the services. And if I was unfortunate and had to Pair ... or queue :( ... that would add more delay ...

And the times when I only need to charge the LR to 70-80%, but the SR would have to be charged well into Taper which takes much longer. (80% - 90% in my LR 90 takes nearly 15 minutes, compared to 5 minutes for 10% increments up to 70%)

And the LR 90 charges at a higher voltage than the SR 75 ... so charges faster (more miles-per-minute added)

lastly, when I sell the car it will lose, say, 50% ... so I am actually just "financing" 50% of the extra sticker price.

You can lose up to 30% of your maximum range in winter.

Unless there is something dramatically worse about Model-3 than Model-S (or your "winter" is -20C rather than my 0C-5C :) ), IME 30% is grossly pessimistic. Bjorn does have a (recent) video comparing Model-3 and Model-S winter consumption, and it suggests that heating the car takes more energy in Model-3. That video was a bit superficial so hopefully he will do something more in-depth, but it might be that Model-S insulation is better, or Model-3 heater less efficient (but surely resistive heater is just watts-to-degrees-heat?)

On short journeys, yeah. But if you can charge at Home/Work that is not an issue (other than relevance to running-cost). ICE is not great on short trips either ... and in ICE you will probably get there before the cabin even starts to warm up :)

On long journeys my February figure for long journeys is 10% worse than my mid Summer consumption (in Model-S). In deep snow it would be far worse ... but on those days I am not going to venture out on a 150 mile trip.

To me an important factor is AWD as in my mind AWD is safer when driving conditions are not so good.

personally I would have Winter Tyres before AWD in winter. AWD helps with "go" but does nothing for stopping ...

FWIW I've gone from MS 90P to bog standard MS LR. I very rarely used the Performance, and the cooking-version is pretty mighty. Off the line the P makes a difference, but mid-range overtaking ... not much.

I don't know the figures for the Model-3 but I wonder how the 40-70 compares between P and LR?
 
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Joelly

Member
Oct 29, 2019
473
203
United Kingdom
"You only need the range if you actually need the range" applies of course:)

But once a month I would definitely be thinking about Long Range ... over last 4-ish years with MS90 I have been out-of-range about twice a month. I winced at the cost of LR price-premium when I originally bought it, and justified it with Man Maths, but in practice the time saved has been very worthwhile.

A further issue that I perceive is Supercharger occupancy. During my ownership I have had to wait just once, and that was for all of 5 minutes, and I have had one other occurrence where I was last-man-in and someone else had to wait ... but that was at a 2 stall site (Ah! The Glorious Early Days !!). Model-3's will mean far more Supercharger occupancy over the next few years. I have recently changed to Raven which looks like it will mean my Supercharging drops to a couple of times a year, instead of two days a month

Comparing my old Longer Range 90 to the Shorter Range 75 that I could have bought (and saved a bundle on):

I have a regular journey Grantham Supercharger - York - Grantham. That is really tight for the 90 LR, but usually some traffic / roadworks makes it possible. Definitely not possible in a SR 75. The alternative is charging at Woodhall on the way back and that adds 15 minutes detour, an extra stop/go, and a few minutes more charging (for the detour).

For the 75 SR: ABRP suggests charging at Leeds, but that only has two stalls, so i would choose Woodhall instead which (in a SR 75) would add 25 minutes to the overall journey time.

Then there will be the times when I can reach destination with no charge on LR, but would need a splash-and-dash in the SR. Even a splash-and-dash adds 5 minutes getting into, and out of, the services. And if I was unfortunate and had to Pair ... or queue :( ... that would add more delay ...

And the times when I only need to charge the LR to 70-80%, but the SR would have to be charged well into Taper which takes much longer. (80% - 90% in my LR 90 takes nearly 15 minutes, compared to 5 minutes for 10% increments up to 70%)

And the LR 90 charges at a higher voltage than the SR 75 ... so charges faster (more miles-per-minute added)

lastly, when I sell the car it will lose, say, 50% ... so I am actually just "financing" 50% of the extra sticker price.



Unless there is something dramatically worse about Model-3 than Model-S (or your "winter" is -20C rather than my 0C-5C :) ), IME 30% is grossly pessimistic. Bjorn does have a (recent) video comparing Model-3 and Model-S winter consumption, and it suggests that heating the car takes more energy in Model-3. That video was a bit superficial so hopefully he will do something more in-depth, but it might be that Model-S insulation is better, or Model-3 heater less efficient (but surely resistive heater is just watts-to-degrees-heat?)

On short journeys, yeah. But if you can charge at Home/Work that is not an issue (other than relevance to running-cost). ICE is not great on short trips either ... and in ICE you will probably get there before the cabin even starts to warm up :)

On long journeys my February figure for long journeys is 10% worse than my mid Summer consumption (in Model-S). In deep snow it would be far worse ... but on those days I am not going to venture out on a 150 mile trip.



personally I would have Winter Tyres before AWD in winter. AWD helps with "go" but does nothing for stopping ...

FWIW I've gone from MS 90P to bog standard MS LR. I very rarely used the Performance, and the cooking-version is pretty mighty. Off the line the P makes a difference, but mid-range overtaking ... not much.

I don't know the figures for the Model-3 but I wonder how the 40-70 compares between P and LR?

Thank you for that! Very informative and reinforces my thinking. Are your calculations theoretical, or have you actually now seen those benefits - in particular not needing to charge on your journey because of LR, where you would have to charge SR, regularly charging to a lower limit than the SR/not charging as much because of the LR?
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,928
Suffolk, UK
Are your calculations theoretical, or have you actually now seen those benefits - in particular not needing to charge on your journey because of LR, where you would have to charge SR

Its theoretical, but only in the sense that I haven't driven both cars over the same route :p

I have driven MS90P over last 3.5 years and 80+K miles, and used Superchargers twice per month.

For my out-of-range journeys I have used ABRP for planning. Generally I have done better than predicted [consumption] because of traffic / road works slowing me to 50 MPH for 20 - 30 minutes, which improves range. But that apart I have found ABRP a pretty good indicator, so i think it is valid as a comparison tool between models (and an iPace etc. if you want to make that comparison too ...)

Anecdotally: I have often been the last to arrive and first to leave at Supercharger. I have no idea what journey the other cars were on, but many of them were 75s so my assumption was that they were needing to charge more or, perhaps more likely, having to charge into "taper" in order to complete their journey which takes longer. Could also be that they had kids / pets, or free charging and time not important to them ... but, although subjective, this wasn't a one off observation.

My average Supercharge time is 23 minutes and 26kWh (approx 60-70 miles), so half my stops were less than that ... (checking the figures it has averaged exactly 2x per month). There were also plenty of occasions where I didn't rush back to the car, so charged somewhat more than I needed to.

ergularly charging to a lower limit than the SR/not charging as much because of the LR?

Personally I never bothered with that. I home-charged to 90% to always have "max range" in case of unforeseen detours / "can you just pick up XXX" ...

From all that I have read about battery health I don't think it makes any tangible difference molly-coddling the battery, but I do have two exceptions: I only charge above 90% "shortly before departure" and if I arrive at below 20% I charge immediately, rather than waiting for Off Peak. (There are Airport Taxis in USA doing 100+K miles p.a., daily charged to 100% and left sitting, frequently Supercharged, that have lost no more than 7% range at 100-200K miles)

Plus if you have LR rather than SR you will be "cycling" the battery less, over the time you have it, and that will reduce the degradation like-for-like.
 

Roy W.

Battery running low...
Jun 3, 2019
2,334
2,393
Derby, UK
"You only need the range if you actually need the range" applies of course:)

But once a month I would definitely be thinking about Long Range ... over last 4-ish years with MS90 I have been out-of-range about twice a month. I winced at the cost of LR price-premium when I originally bought it, and justified it with Man Maths, but in practice the time saved has been very worthwhile.

A further issue that I perceive is Supercharger occupancy. During my ownership I have had to wait just once, and that was for all of 5 minutes, and I have had one other occurrence where I was last-man-in and someone else had to wait ... but that was at a 2 stall site (Ah! The Glorious Early Days !!). Model-3's will mean far more Supercharger occupancy over the next few years. I have recently changed to Raven which looks like it will mean my Supercharging drops to a couple of times a year, instead of two days a month

Comparing my old Longer Range 90 to the Shorter Range 75 that I could have bought (and saved a bundle on):

I have a regular journey Grantham Supercharger - York - Grantham. That is really tight for the 90 LR, but usually some traffic / roadworks makes it possible. Definitely not possible in a SR 75. The alternative is charging at Woodhall on the way back and that adds 15 minutes detour, an extra stop/go, and a few minutes more charging (for the detour).

For the 75 SR: ABRP suggests charging at Leeds, but that only has two stalls, so i would choose Woodhall instead which (in a SR 75) would add 25 minutes to the overall journey time.

Then there will be the times when I can reach destination with no charge on LR, but would need a splash-and-dash in the SR. Even a splash-and-dash adds 5 minutes getting into, and out of, the services. And if I was unfortunate and had to Pair ... or queue :( ... that would add more delay ...

And the times when I only need to charge the LR to 70-80%, but the SR would have to be charged well into Taper which takes much longer. (80% - 90% in my LR 90 takes nearly 15 minutes, compared to 5 minutes for 10% increments up to 70%)

And the LR 90 charges at a higher voltage than the SR 75 ... so charges faster (more miles-per-minute added)

lastly, when I sell the car it will lose, say, 50% ... so I am actually just "financing" 50% of the extra sticker price.



Unless there is something dramatically worse about Model-3 than Model-S (or your "winter" is -20C rather than my 0C-5C :) ), IME 30% is grossly pessimistic. Bjorn does have a (recent) video comparing Model-3 and Model-S winter consumption, and it suggests that heating the car takes more energy in Model-3. That video was a bit superficial so hopefully he will do something more in-depth, but it might be that Model-S insulation is better, or Model-3 heater less efficient (but surely resistive heater is just watts-to-degrees-heat?)

On short journeys, yeah. But if you can charge at Home/Work that is not an issue (other than relevance to running-cost). ICE is not great on short trips either ... and in ICE you will probably get there before the cabin even starts to warm up :)

On long journeys my February figure for long journeys is 10% worse than my mid Summer consumption (in Model-S). In deep snow it would be far worse ... but on those days I am not going to venture out on a 150 mile trip.



personally I would have Winter Tyres before AWD in winter. AWD helps with "go" but does nothing for stopping ...

FWIW I've gone from MS 90P to bog standard MS LR. I very rarely used the Performance, and the cooking-version is pretty mighty. Off the line the P makes a difference, but mid-range overtaking ... not much.

I don't know the figures for the Model-3 but I wonder how the 40-70 compares between P and LR?
Ok, here’s a real-life example from today.

We’ve just driven from our holiday let near Jedburgh to home, a 200 mile journey.

Last night I charged to 100%, and this morning the car showed a range of 299 miles. The outside temperature was -1 degrees according to the car - a thick white frost. While it was plugged in I warmed the car up, but because I was only on the UMC that pre-heating eat into the range by 10 miles.

We drove home without charging, sticking to 70 on autopilot once on the A1. The roads before the A1 are a bit slower. A few times I overtook at 75 mph.

We’ve just got home with 22 miles of range left, 6% battery, just in the red zone.

So, in summary, from an initial range of 299, we did a 200 mile journey but used up 277 miles of range, which by my calculation the “lost” 77 miles equates to about 26% of the initial range.

Also, this was a dry journey, so I’d have expected to lose even more in the wet.

The range loss with the Model 3 is certainly more than I was expecting. I found the Kona electric to display a much more achievable range in the 15000 miles I drove it. I think the efficiency of the Model 3 is perhaps a bit overstated.
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,928
Suffolk, UK
We’ve just driven from our holiday let near Jedburgh to home, a 200 mile journey

I think the 299 miles posted is WLTP or somesuch isn't it? rather than a realistic realworld 70 MPH range, sorry.

Did you happen to use the Energy : TRIP graph, if so how did that look? (original prediction compared to actual achieved)

By my reckoning the - realworld 70 MPH cruising - range of M3 LR AWD is about 250 miles on a nice, still, Summers day and 200 miles at 5C with a modest headwind on wet roads, your 200 miles on dry winter roads and arrive at 6% would match that.
 

Roy W.

Battery running low...
Jun 3, 2019
2,334
2,393
Derby, UK
I think the 299 miles posted is WLTP or somesuch isn't it? rather than a realistic realworld 70 MPH range, sorry.

Did you happen to use the Energy : TRIP graph, if so how did that look? (original prediction compared to actual achieved)

By my reckoning the - realworld 70 MPH cruising - range of M3 LR AWD is about 250 miles on a nice, still, Summers day and 200 miles at 5C with a modest headwind on wet roads, your 200 miles on dry winter roads and arrive at 6% would match that.
The WLTP range quoted for the LR AWD is actually 348 miles, so I’d take the 299 to be more like the achievable range, assuming you’re not heavy-footed.

I did use the Energy : Trip graph, and at the outset of the journey it said we’d arrive with 4% battery, by driving at 75 mph or less. So we beat that by 2%, but there was no way our average speed was anywhere near 75 mph. The A1 around Newcastle was very busy, and we had a long stretch at 40-50 mph.

I’m not obsessing about this - the range is what it is, but I certainly feel the Kona was a lot more efficient, despite the fact that the Model 3 is heralded as being super-efficient as EVs go. And also the Model 3 is a much better car overall, IMHO.
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,928
Suffolk, UK
I did use the Energy : Trip graph, and at the outset of the journey it said we’d arrive with 4% battery, by driving at 75 mph or less

Can't help with the 299 mile display part, I just use Percent instead, but IME the TRIP graph is pretty good - seems it worked for you similarly. I don't know how well it takes into account SatNav journey's temperature / weather, but once you set off it adjusts the prediction according to actual, so if you drive like a loon :rolleyes: or the weather is atrocious, then the Graph Prediction should be good enough to plan to (add refuelling stop, slow down ... or if energy to spare then speed up)
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,928
Suffolk, UK
the car showed a range of 299 miles

Just remembered this other resource for real-world mileage:

Tesla Range Table - Teslike.com

They reckon (depending on wheel size and Aero hubcaps etc) 290 miles @ 70 MPH (presumably ideal temperature etc.) Personally I think that is optimistic ... but the data capture for that Range Table should mean that it is reliable ...
 

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