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MA Clean Vehicle Project - $50k QC Deployment Awards

Discussion in 'New England' started by DNAinaGoodWay, Nov 10, 2014.

  1. DNAinaGoodWay

    DNAinaGoodWay Member

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    I've received an update from the MA DOER on the upcoming deployment of DCQC across the state.

    Follow the link in this email to the first RFP for applications for up to $50k reimbursement for QC installs. There's a lot of red tape and hoops to jump, but if you know of a firm or municipality that might be interested, please forward the link. The plan is for dual SAE Combo/CHAdeMO stations to be publically available for 15 years, lots more details in the link. A $50k award should help the business model get started.

    The other 12 Linda mentions are at DOT owned sites, rest stops on the Pike, 128, etc.

    The map at the end of the pdf shows the preferred sites.

    Here's the email:

    Still doing site planning and load calculations for 12 FC to be located at highway rest areas and a request for proposals is out for 8 more:

    http://www.mass.gov/eea/docs/doer/procu ... 15-013.pdf

    2015 is the year!

    Linda J. Benevides
    MA Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs
    100 Cambridge Street Suite 900
    Boston, MA 02114
    (617) 626-1197
    (617) 626-1181 (fax)
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Kandiru

    Kandiru Member

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    Good job MA, always a progressive state.
     
  3. PeterK

    PeterK Model S Owner

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    I wonder if the existence of this program will help remove what I've heard from an insider is the objection to Tesla Superchargers at Mass Pike service areas - that the State doesn't want to be seen as providing public support for something only wealthy people who can afford a Tesla can use. This even though everything is paid for by Tesla. A very different attitude from our neighbors in CT, though on the other hand they apparently still won't let Tesla open a showroom there...

    I was hoping for Superchargers at the Charlton service area but I guess it's kind of moot with Auburn coming online soon - though getting on and off the Turnpike will add a few minutes of driving and some incremental toll cost.
     
  4. DNAinaGoodWay

    DNAinaGoodWay Member

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    Hmmm, haven't heard that one before. Perhaps when the Model 3 arrives and outsells all others, that attitude will change.

    I may be wrong, but thought I read that CT had Tesla "dealers", even requiring them to maintain a certain minimum number of cars in stock.

    The Auburn SC is an easy on/off the Pike, total tolls should be the same. Advantage to this is you only need one site, not one on each side of the Pike. Plus, when the 84 exchange is backed up, you can shoot up 20 much easier.
     
  5. DNAinaGoodWay

    DNAinaGoodWay Member

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    In any case, if you have the adapter, more CHAdeMO gives you more options. Albeit, not as good as a SC.
     
  6. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    #6 techmaven, Nov 12, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2014
    Wow. What an absurd waste of public money.

    Think of the government money that went into installing the Blink network of J1772 24A chargers. In 5-10 years, we will look upon 50kW DCFC just like we look upon 24A J1772's. Nearly useless, nice if if you have nothing else, but at large amounts of public money. Nissan, BMW and others will need 100kW charging by 2017/2018 if you believe their projections. Certainly by 2020, 50kW will look quaint.

    However, even with 150kW sized packs, 80A L2 charging is adequate for overnight charging. Within 10 years, we are not likely getting bigger than 150kW (overall solution to range is more charging opportunities, not much bigger packs), especially non-Tesla vehicles. Further, we need *many* more plugs. So for $50,000, you can partially fund the install of a single dual standard DCFC at a single location that will be obsolete within 4 years, or you can fully pay for the installation of 30-40 high amperage destination charging in many locations. Until almost all of the hotels, shopping malls, and so forth have 60-80A L2 charging, why are they spending money on DCFC?
     
  7. DNAinaGoodWay

    DNAinaGoodWay Member

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    Far as I can tell, most people still seem unaware that BEVs exist, and many that are aware are disinterested.

    As primitive as these QCs will be in a few years, they're better than the practically nothing that exists now. I think the idea is to do what they can to help foster adoption by reducing range anxiety.

    It would certainly be even better if stations were ubiquitous, but I think adoption will have to come first, to drive more privately installed EVSE.
     
  8. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    The problem is that very real money needs to be spent on an infrastructure that will last a far longer time - higher powered L2 charging pretty much everywhere someone is likely to stay for many hours, like every hotel and motel in the state. Also, reaching places that are very difficult for private enterprise to install or make a profit, like parks and recreation areas. DCFC at this stage is just wasting limited money.

    MA isn't the only state making this folly in investment ... Maryland is doing the same thing. Completely ridiculous.
     
  9. DNAinaGoodWay

    DNAinaGoodWay Member

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    I must disagree. My car won't accept more than 6kW on L2, no matter how high powered the station is, but with 25 or 50 kW QC, I'm good to go. I'm 50 miles from Logan Airport, and it's been less than a year since I could use QCs within 16 miles of Logan to transport someone there. Before that, I would have had to spend hours in Boston on L2. Just recently, a hotel added QC that's only 3 miles from Logan, it's made it much easier. Turnpike QC will make the journey simpler yet. I can't wait. I think the expenditure is justified as cars like mine will predominate for at least the next 3 years, probably 6. I think it's better to install what we have now, and expand with higher power when the time comes, and if the power required exists at each site.

    Really, at the snails pace of govt action, I'm thrilled it's happening at all.
     
  10. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    #10 techmaven, Nov 12, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2014

    Again... screw the long term BEV future because Nissan/whomever was short sighted in putting in low powered L2 charging into the car? Nissan/BMW/Kia/etc. themselves will not be selling that car in 2017/2018. They are all counting on changes in NMC chemistry for 40-60kWh packs. But the boondoggle of spending $50k each on DCFC will outlast that car. Precisely because the government is slow and the funds are scarce, the they shouldn't be wasting money like this because you bought a first generation battery pack and charger.

    Nissan is has a huge part in the mess that is L2 charging in the U.S. Now they are screwing us further with promoting idiotic DCFC solutions. Didn't we waste enough money on the Blink network?
     
  11. RiverBrick

    RiverBrick Active Member

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    What do you propose? Doing nothing while waiting for something better to come along in four years?
     
  12. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    #12 techmaven, Nov 12, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2014
    First thing is to look at the BEV's that will be on the road in 2020 and 2025. We're talking 40kWh is likely the minimum, with the vast majority clustered between Telsa's existing 60kWh and 85kWh battery packs. Realize that if they do get the advanced NMC chemistries out the door (next generation Leaf, etc.) in 2017/2018, by 2020 we're talking DCFC at 100kW+. Also, we're hoping to be talking about hundreds of thousands of BEV's being sold year, hopefully going into million's by 2025.

    DCFC is very expensive right now and will continue to be expensive. The Bosch CCS unit for 25kW is $6,500, and that's w/o outdoor pedestal or a method for payment. A typical combo CCS/CHAdeMO unit is around $50,000-65,000. That's all without installation. Installation costs are huge for 3 phase 480v. 50kWh DCFC total cost is something like $20,000 (heavily subsidized) to $75,000 for *each plug*. On the other hand, you can buy an 80A J1772 (20kW) for $2,500 with pedestal that will be reasonable to charge a 150kWh battery pack overnight in 2025. That investment will be amortized for at least 10 years. The 20kW J1772 can charge pretty much every EV sold in the U.S.

    However, we have a chicken and egg problem. Since Nissan amongst others have been myopic at the L2 charging amperage, we have a lot of L2 charging installed at 24A and 30A and they are in the wrong places (Walgreens, Whole Foods, etc.). In 2025, pretty much every hotel, every shopping mall, ski resorts, parks, etc. need high amperage L2 charging and a lot of it. Again, remember the 5:1 to 10:1 cost differential. For a 60kWh Nissan BEV, does it make sense to charge at 24A? With 200 miles of EPA range, do you really charge at your local grocery store? No. We need lots of destination charging. Like 200 plugs at an airport. Like 10-20 for each hotel. 25-50 for each ski resort. Think of what it would mean for 50 BEV's to travel to ski resort and try to charge. We need to be able to fill a 60kWh battery in 6 hours... it doesn't help to fill it in 1.25 hours and have a line of 10 people waiting. Are you getting off the slopes to move your car from a DCFC? 25-65kW DCFC doesn't cut it, because it is too expensive and therefore too few plugs and it is both too fast for overnight (at a hotel, are you moving your car at 2:00am to let someone else charge?) and too slow to realistically support long distance travel. Until that infrastructure is built out, why would we want to waste government money on DCFC?

    Instead of pushing for more DCFC, we should be pushing Nissan/BMW and others for higher speed L2. At least 10kW (40A J1772), preferably 20kW. That infrastructure is necessary no matter who is supplying the BEV and will make sense even in 2025. If Nissan ships a 60kWh BEV, does it makes sense for them to have only a 6.6kW L2 charger? No... they have to ship at least 10kW at point in order to be able to charge the car in under 8 hours overnight at home. Then those owners will look around and have the problem that we have so many 24A L2 charge points. At least the Mercedes B class can take 10kW charging - it should have an option for 20kW and that makes more sense than putting in CCS. It makes more sense for Nissan to move the money that they spend on subsidizing 50/60kW DCFC to higher speed L2 - a retrofit for existing cars. The battery pack in their cars can take 20kW from a J1772, but they'd rather play a marketshare game with CHAdeMO instead. And therefore we waste money installing idiotic DCFC.
     
  13. DNAinaGoodWay

    DNAinaGoodWay Member

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    I'm fine with building out high powered L2 infrastructure, just as you propose, and in fact, it's already begun. But QC is no waste in the meantime, and both can be built concurrently. We have to deal with the reality we have now, if you want to get to the future you envision. It's not guaranteed by any means. QC will help grow the market to get us to those long range cars. Today's cars will remain in service as used cars for many years as well. Bottom line, QCs are coming, and I'll love it. But I'll also love your future, I hope it comes too. QCs will only aid it, not hinder it.
     
  14. RiverBrick

    RiverBrick Active Member

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    Yes, destination charging is needed and L2 can handle that , but 50 kWh DCQC is for another purpose, regional trips. For example, the gold standard where I live is Quebec City to Montreal, which can be up to 175 miles one-way. Indeed, many people here tell me they will not consider acquiring a BEV unless it allows them to complete this journey in a reasonable time, even if they only make the trip twice per year.

    If you double the range of the existing LEAF you still come up about 13 kWh short of making it without recharging. This is in good conditions. Factor in the prevailing wind from the West, cold Canadian temperatures, battery degradation, and a 20% safety margin and it's more like 33 kWh. Even driving at the legal 100 kph instead of the prevalent 115 kph (which is hard enough to convince people to do) would leave a deficit of ~15kWh.

    80A L2 is only 20kW for the ultra-rare times there's 250V service. The median voltage I see at commercial sites is ~200V, so I'd expect most 80A public stations to be ~16kW. This translates to 1-2 hours of recharging for a 175-mile trip, well over the public's threshold of tolerance. However, 50kW reduces that to an acceptable 20-40 minutes.
     
  15. DNAinaGoodWay

    DNAinaGoodWay Member

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    I so wanted to attend the big EV rally in Montreal this year. If VT also builds out sufficient QC by the next one, we will come up. We love Montreal.
     
  16. 3mp_kwh

    3mp_kwh Member

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    Maybe it won't take off, but I think you can make the economic case for L3 highway charging @50kw. So much of it will be top-offs, and seeing people getting used to having to plan an extra 30-45 minutes along a highway seems like a good trade-off, if its not the main use of the vehicle and otherwise saving them thousands in gas money every year.

    All this is assuming economics explain behavior. Myself, I think EREV works best.
     
  17. bigmaple1

    bigmaple1 Member

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    Since when has government been efficient or long-term thinking in how they spend money. That being said, I think this is an amazingly great idea. Those of us that have embraced BEV, and own BEVs, see writing on the wall, and we assume everyone else does too. That isn't the case. (Here's hoping that Elon's vision is correct). We don't have the next generation (or 2) of cars or charging technology or charging infrastructure to use. This is what we've got. There is nothing prohibiting them being updated in the future if (when) the above 3 items change. Also, this investement is literally nothing compared to what will be invested in the future for infrastructure around the world if BEVs are truely successful. My thoughts are that it is good there is political will to making this happen, we should embrace and encourage it while it lasts (just in case). Also, Tesla isn't the only player, and the BEV movement will likely fail if it remains the only serious player. Putting in chargers that can accomodate multiple vehicle manufacturers is a must. (Now, if we could just get our hands on that elusive CHADEMO adapter.)
     
  18. RiverBrick

    RiverBrick Active Member

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    Any idea why all the Vermont CHAdeMO and dual CHAdeMO/CCS Combo installations are clustered in the Northwest of the state? Are there different utility companies and the one up North is pro EV infrastructure, whereas the one in Brattleboro doesn't see the need?
     
  19. DNAinaGoodWay

    DNAinaGoodWay Member

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    Not sure why that is. Had heard rumors of a coordinated effort by Green Mountain Power, but it seems stalled, if there ever was one. What there is seems driven by ZEV and GHG commitments, and the people responsible, and prospective site hosts, while well meaning, are mostly not BEV drivers, and so mostly unaware of the realities of non-Tesla EV driving. Even with a Tesla, in many areas of the country where no SCs exist yet, the issues are the same, if you want to travel more than your range. These people need to hear our feedback, our stories. This is a prime time to influence infrastucture build out. I might have a contact email for VT, I'll try to dig it out later.

    What ever happened to Tesla's CHAdeMO adapter? I thought it was available already. I've seen pics of some on PlugShare anyway.
     
  20. RiverBrick

    RiverBrick Active Member

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    Those pics are from beta-testing, or from people who have been lent the adapter for special occasions. It's not yet for sale. Apparently, there are compatibility issues to resolve with certain CHAdeMO stations. afaik it works with all the major players in this corner of North America. (Quebec's AddEnergie, AV, Fuji, Nissan and Eaton) so I wish I had it.
     

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