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Major automakers to create ultrafast chargin stations in Europe

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by Matias, Nov 29, 2016.

  1. Vitold

    Vitold Active Member

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    In summary, for now, it's a lot of hot air.
     
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  2. gaswalla

    gaswalla P4201/85/airsusp/pano/19i

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    Seems like battery tech also needs to be able to support rates like 350kw.
    I would think the supercharger network is upgradeable - and with the conduits and locations all built, should be quite simple (and expensive)
     
  3. RubberToe

    RubberToe Supporting the greater good

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    There comes a point of diminishing returns when it comes to charging speed. A gas car takes 5 minutes, a Tesla takes 30 minutes (for the sake of argument). For a 270 mile trip to Vegas I had 2 stops of 20 minutes. Even if the stops were only 10 minutes, you still need the 5-10 additional minutes to get to and from the freeway to the charger. Three people doing a restroom break takes more than 10 minutes, so the fully charged car is sitting there taking up valuable space.

    For the majority of travelers, the current Supercharger network is perfectly adequate. It enables long distance travel when there had been no way to do that previously. A new standard that is 2x faster marginally improves long distance travel.

    BMW salesman: "Why buy a slow charging Tesla today, when we will be rolling out 400 even faster chargers in Europe, in 2020, and we may even have a single car that can take advantage of the full capability costing $160,000?"

    In 2018, Tesla will have a $40,000 car that can use an existing network to charge at 135kw. When will any of those 5 automakers have a $40,000 car that can do 350kw?

    RT
     
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  4. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    ^Well..one could also argue about the real benefit of cutting 0.1 seconds from 0-100km/h :p

    Anyway, the more fast charging stations the better. I'm sure Tesla will do CCS adapter.
     
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  5. Evbwcaer

    Evbwcaer Member

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    I feel that chargers with higher outputs, such as 350kw, would be a good thing. Hopefully in the future we will see commercial trucks with 500kwh batteries, for example, that could make good use of 350kw.
     
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  6. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    This is good news for EVs, of course. But...

    Quote: "BMW Group, Daimler AG, Ford Motor Company and Volkswagen Group with Audi and Porsche have signed a Memorandum of Understanding... The Joint Venture formation is subject to execution of definitive agreements and merger control approval in various jurisdictions."

    Right now this announcement is just vaporware, and even that much "progress" would never have happened if Tesla did not exist.

    I doubt the announced timetable of "By 2020 the customers should have access to thousands of high-powered charging points" will be achieved, just as I am skeptical that those companies will produce EVs in volume by 2020 that can charge at rates much higher than what Tesla is capable of right now. In the meantime Tesla will continue to build out its Supercharger network in Europe and will remain far ahead fo what the other manufacturers are saying they will do years from now.

    Again, good news for EVs, but I say "Stop making announcements and start actually doing something!".
     
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  7. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

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    This is great and all, but it's difficult to get excited about it. Daimler announced 3 years ago that it was going to build a network of 200 H2 stations in Germany, but not only have they not been built they seem not to have made much in the way of strides to build the vehicles that would use them.

    Anyway, the more interest in making BEVs practical the better, but it's time to put up or shut up here.
     
  8. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    It's not even actual vaporware yet, it's announcing that they're planning to create vaporware.
    Maybe we need a new term "pre-vaporware"
     
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  9. MichFin

    MichFin Member

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    This is great news!!! More charging location the better for everyone. In the end it really only comes down to three things price, battery and design. Those will drive success for any car company in the future
     
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  10. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    News and vaporware (or pre-vaporware) are two different things.
     
  11. thegruf

    thegruf Active Member

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    Is there any battery that can take 350KW charging?

    In the simplest terms it would mean you have to halve the internal resistance so that the charge rate didn't overheat the cells.
    I haven't seen any automotive grade battery (by which I mean long life/power density and power/weight) tech announced that even gets close to this.

    With current technology you would have to double the cell count and that certainly is not going to happen.

    Actually the only significant announcement from the Germans really is that MB are investing in their own "gigafactory". At least they are starting to consider the full picture perhaps from their experience as Tesla shareholders. The Germans will get there but they sure are fumbling the ball big time right now. 5 years of Model S and nothing whatsoever by way of competition. Apple iPhone comparisons are certainly appropriate.

    To me it sounds like yet another announcement designed to "beat Tesla" which has little substance in reality.
     
  12. RubberToe

    RubberToe Supporting the greater good

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    Now all the Tesla-killer vaporware cars that can charge at 350kw have a Supercharger-killer vaporware charging network to charge up on.

    This will be the new German bedtime story, replacing Hansel and Gretel.

    Grandpa: So little Hans, when your grandchildren grow up, they will drive 300 miles on a single charge on the Autobahn. And only have to stop briefly to recharge at the 350kw Turbocharger. Just like the Teslas have been doing since grandpa was a little boy!

    Little Hans: Really Grandpa? Are our great German engineers really only 20 years behind Tesla now? <drifts off to sleep dreaming of having his own i3 out on the Autobahn>...

    RT
     
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  13. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    The S60 tops out just a little over 100kW at a Supercharger and the S85/90 tops out just under 120 kW. Yet you are certain that the ~55 kWh Model 3 will charge at 135 kW?
     
  14. RubberToe

    RubberToe Supporting the greater good

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    The Superchargers are 135kw, what ends up getting to the car is another question entirely. Same applies to the vaporware 350kw German Superchargers.

    Just like YMMV, your Supercharging rate may vary.

    RT
     
  15. Kdmn

    Kdmn Member

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    At 800 volt the 350kw should not be too hard... Vaporwear yes but the Germans start to panick a litlle and let's just hope they will now actually move as well.
     
  16. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    Ok. They claim these 400 sites will be installed next year so it's not some far-off ambiguous fantasy and Opel Ampera-e cars will apparently be plugging into them.

    So, I guess GM will have a ~$40,000 car that can use an existing network to charge at 350 kW. o_O
     
  17. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

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    Where are you getting information that the Opel Ampera-e will be able to use 350kW? (GM has said that the Bolt can only use 50kW even though they are requiring dealers to install in 80kW chargers.)
     
  18. Jeff N

    Jeff N Active Member

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    I'm just kidding with RubberToe who quoted the Supercharger hardware rate of 135 kW (actually 145 kW now) instead of the rate that the Model 3 will actually be able to draw from a Supercharger with its base trim battery.

    The Bolt EV should be able to plug in to a "350 kW" (350A) station but won't charge any faster than if they plugged into a "150 kW" (350A) station. It's unclear what power a Bolt will actually be able to draw on such a station. We will just have to try one to find out.
     
  19. thegruf

    thegruf Active Member

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    No, sorry but you are wrong.
    My discussion was not about the current through the charging cable, but the rate at which the cells can be safely charged.
    Obviously if you double the voltage you halve the current in the charging cable.
    You also significantly increase safety concerns not just with the voltage but at 350KW the power transfer is very substantial in context this is five times the power to a typical small/medium factory with a 230V 100A 3 phase supply, though a flexible cable that joe public is handling. So the charger cable might be in good condition and maintained well, but I have seen Tesla owners just leave their home charging cable outside on the ground, the condensation and accumulated crud is then passed to the cars connection, which can all end up with contaminated vehicle connections, and at such powers the consequences are inevitable even with tight safety management.

    However if you have for example 7000 cells at 3.6V the current to each cell at 350KW is 13.8A, even allowing 10% for losses you are still at ~12A.

    I dont know of any cell that is going to give 200,000 mile+ use with suitable power and weight density that can be charged at that rate.
    Charge rate is significantly affected by the cell internal resistance. Charge too fast and the cell is damaged through heat and other unwanted chemical processes that degrade the cell. This is precisely why Tesla taper the charge rate at higher charge levels.

    So you are either going to have to double the number of cells (trucks maybe but not cars) to spread the charge rate or newer tech will have to deliver on this.

    Now it is quite correct to aim higher than today's technology requires, but mostly this just looks like the Germans announcing that we are going to do something better than Tesla in 2+ year's time (optimistically) in an attempt to get buyers to hold off buy Tesla's today.

    This simple response to that is buy a Tesla today.

    And when the bullsh*t end and they actually have product available then consider others as well.
     
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