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Major automakers to create ultrafast chargin stations in Europe
- Thread starter Matias
- Start date
HillCountryFun
Member
I totally agree, when Elon did his Supercharger announcement, way back in 2012, Tesla showed 4 new but open Supercharger sites!!
HillCountryFun
Member
Well, it's a system so all aspects must be evaluated. The cells are certainly a critical item but so are the remaining components. As far as the cells are concerned, I believe the real key is to manage the cell temps as the pack is charged. Tesla recently took a step forward in this area by revising the cooling wraps in the new P100D pack. So one way to allow for that much power (350KW) would be to alter the charging characteristics (e.g. Voltage) but another way would be to implement a dramatically better cooling system for the cells/pack.
Another area Tesla could improve is the tapering of the power during the charging cycle. If they can keep the power higher for longer they could reduce the charging time by as much as 25% without dramatic changes to their approach.
Enjoying this thread, looking forward to Tesla making another step change with Supercharger performance.
European carmakers hope to catch Tesla with faster e-car chargers
11 Jan 2017 at 20:04
WRITER: REUTERS
A Roewe 950 hybrid electric car is displayed with its plug-in charger at an electric car dealership in Shanghai, China, on Wednesday. (Reuters photo)
FRANKFURT - Europe's biggest carmakers are drawing on the full force of the continent's industrial prowess to build a network of ultra-fast charging stations as they look to stoke demand for electric cars and break Tesla's stranglehold on the market.
BMW, Volkswagen, Ford and Daimler plan to build about 400 next-generation charging stations in Europe that can reload an electric car in minutes instead of hours.
The long time it takes to charge batteries is one of the main disadvantages of electric cars compared to conventional cars with gasoline tanks that can be filled up in seconds.
Until now, drivers of electric cars have had to leave their vehicles plugged in for hours at a charging station for a journey between cities, making many long range journeys impractical.
Installing new, faster chargers would spur the overall market, and also help the traditional car manufacturers close the gap with Tesla, the Silicon Valley-based e-car leader, which maintains its own network of charging stations. Tesla's chargers are the fastest in the industry, and are incompatible with existing electric cars made by rivals.
The carmakers are roping in experts from the European power and engineering industry, including Germany's Innogy, E.ON and Siemens and Portugal's Efacec, which are all working on the technology, people familiar with the matter told Reuters.
The new 350 kilowatt (kW) chargers would be nearly three times as powerful as Tesla's.
"This is a structured and concerted effort across sectors to tackle the infrastructure issue in a real way," one of the sources said.
A spokesman for Ford, speaking on behalf of the consortium, said talks with possible partners had started, adding he expected several energy providers to be part of the planned network, without elaborating further.
Tesla's tech billionaire CEO Elon Musk has hinted that the company will not be outdone, tweeting that 350 kW chargers are a "children's toy". A Germany-based spokeswoman for the company declined to comment beyond Musk's remarks.
European carmakers believe they are on the cusp of a surge in demand for electric vehicles. Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche expects electric vehicles will make up 15-25% of Mercedes sales by 2025.
But first, technicians have to solve the problem of conveniently charging them up.
Europe already has a network of nearly 72,000 public charging stations for electric cars, but most are so slow they take hours for a meaningful charge.
The International Energy Agency says only about 5,800 European charging stations are "fast", which it defines as charging at a rate of 43 kW or more, the equivalent of operating 90 washing machines simultaneously.
The fastest chargers in widespread use on the continent so far are the more than 1,800 installed so far by Tesla. At 120 kW, they still need half an hour to give a car enough juice to drive 270 km.
As the market for electric cars grows, traditional car makers are going to find it easier to catch up with Tesla, said Graham Evans, automotive analyst at IHS Markit.
"Tesla doesn't really have anyone to answer to, they are independent," he said. "(But) I think that further out the big (automakers) are in a better position to capitalise because of their more extensive resources."
Installing thousands of fast chargers across the globe will require billions of dollars in investment and offer an opportunity to manufacturers. The car consortium's new fast chargers will cost about €200,000 ($210,000) each.
US market leader ChargePoint upped the ante last week by announcing stations of up to 400 kW that will be available from July.
Navigant Research analyst Lisa Jerram said the number of players in the nascent market to build ultra-fast charging stations makes it difficult to call out a winner yet.
"Development is underway on these chargers so there isn't a leader at this point," she said.
So far, makers of charging stations are focused mainly on getting exposure and market share by installing as many as possible. But sooner or later, investors are going to want to see profits, which means that cost will come to matter more.
That holds true even for Tesla, which is starting to adjust its business model as the industry grows up.
Tesla cars ordered up until this week have come with free electricity from its charging stations. But owners who order their cars after Jan 15 will have to pay to power them up once they reach a limit, although the company says the price will always be cheaper than gasoline.
"Burning money as a result of the market and technology not being ready is unlikely to be rewarded by shareholders," said Thomas Deser, senior fund manager at Union Investment.
European carmakers hope to catch Tesla with faster e-car chargers
11 Jan 2017 at 20:04
WRITER: REUTERS
A Roewe 950 hybrid electric car is displayed with its plug-in charger at an electric car dealership in Shanghai, China, on Wednesday. (Reuters photo)
FRANKFURT - Europe's biggest carmakers are drawing on the full force of the continent's industrial prowess to build a network of ultra-fast charging stations as they look to stoke demand for electric cars and break Tesla's stranglehold on the market.
BMW, Volkswagen, Ford and Daimler plan to build about 400 next-generation charging stations in Europe that can reload an electric car in minutes instead of hours.
The long time it takes to charge batteries is one of the main disadvantages of electric cars compared to conventional cars with gasoline tanks that can be filled up in seconds.
Until now, drivers of electric cars have had to leave their vehicles plugged in for hours at a charging station for a journey between cities, making many long range journeys impractical.
Installing new, faster chargers would spur the overall market, and also help the traditional car manufacturers close the gap with Tesla, the Silicon Valley-based e-car leader, which maintains its own network of charging stations. Tesla's chargers are the fastest in the industry, and are incompatible with existing electric cars made by rivals.
The carmakers are roping in experts from the European power and engineering industry, including Germany's Innogy, E.ON and Siemens and Portugal's Efacec, which are all working on the technology, people familiar with the matter told Reuters.
The new 350 kilowatt (kW) chargers would be nearly three times as powerful as Tesla's.
"This is a structured and concerted effort across sectors to tackle the infrastructure issue in a real way," one of the sources said.
A spokesman for Ford, speaking on behalf of the consortium, said talks with possible partners had started, adding he expected several energy providers to be part of the planned network, without elaborating further.
Tesla's tech billionaire CEO Elon Musk has hinted that the company will not be outdone, tweeting that 350 kW chargers are a "children's toy". A Germany-based spokeswoman for the company declined to comment beyond Musk's remarks.
European carmakers believe they are on the cusp of a surge in demand for electric vehicles. Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche expects electric vehicles will make up 15-25% of Mercedes sales by 2025.
But first, technicians have to solve the problem of conveniently charging them up.
Europe already has a network of nearly 72,000 public charging stations for electric cars, but most are so slow they take hours for a meaningful charge.
The International Energy Agency says only about 5,800 European charging stations are "fast", which it defines as charging at a rate of 43 kW or more, the equivalent of operating 90 washing machines simultaneously.
The fastest chargers in widespread use on the continent so far are the more than 1,800 installed so far by Tesla. At 120 kW, they still need half an hour to give a car enough juice to drive 270 km.
As the market for electric cars grows, traditional car makers are going to find it easier to catch up with Tesla, said Graham Evans, automotive analyst at IHS Markit.
"Tesla doesn't really have anyone to answer to, they are independent," he said. "(But) I think that further out the big (automakers) are in a better position to capitalise because of their more extensive resources."
Installing thousands of fast chargers across the globe will require billions of dollars in investment and offer an opportunity to manufacturers. The car consortium's new fast chargers will cost about €200,000 ($210,000) each.
US market leader ChargePoint upped the ante last week by announcing stations of up to 400 kW that will be available from July.
Navigant Research analyst Lisa Jerram said the number of players in the nascent market to build ultra-fast charging stations makes it difficult to call out a winner yet.
"Development is underway on these chargers so there isn't a leader at this point," she said.
So far, makers of charging stations are focused mainly on getting exposure and market share by installing as many as possible. But sooner or later, investors are going to want to see profits, which means that cost will come to matter more.
That holds true even for Tesla, which is starting to adjust its business model as the industry grows up.
Tesla cars ordered up until this week have come with free electricity from its charging stations. But owners who order their cars after Jan 15 will have to pay to power them up once they reach a limit, although the company says the price will always be cheaper than gasoline.
"Burning money as a result of the market and technology not being ready is unlikely to be rewarded by shareholders," said Thomas Deser, senior fund manager at Union Investment.
European carmakers hope to catch Tesla with faster e-car chargers
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Porsche has already announced that "350kW" is actually only 220kW in their future car with 800 volt battery. Almost the same amps (350 vs Tesla at 330-365) and double the voltage.
Instead of 110-120kW in a Tesla with a 400 volt battery, it will be 220kW into an 800 volt battery. Double power with double volts, at roughly the same amps.
Nothing particularly earth shattering, except it will be interesting how they get rid of waste heat, as well as how long the cells last at double the power (likely for a very short amount of time).
Also, no future Model 3 is going to charge faster than 120kW, since that's the output of the Supercharger. 135-145kW is the AC power possible from the grid with the 12 modules. The originals modules were the same as those onboard charger(s) in you pre-2016 US/Japan spec car. They consumed 11kW * 12 = 132kW with an output of 120kW DC.
Each model is capable of 40a * 277v = 11kW
They needed 365 amps DC (over 330 amps) for the new 70-75kWh cars in order to bump them up to near 120kW, which is the motivation for "145kW".
Instead of 110-120kW in a Tesla with a 400 volt battery, it will be 220kW into an 800 volt battery. Double power with double volts, at roughly the same amps.
Nothing particularly earth shattering, except it will be interesting how they get rid of waste heat, as well as how long the cells last at double the power (likely for a very short amount of time).
Also, no future Model 3 is going to charge faster than 120kW, since that's the output of the Supercharger. 135-145kW is the AC power possible from the grid with the 12 modules. The originals modules were the same as those onboard charger(s) in you pre-2016 US/Japan spec car. They consumed 11kW * 12 = 132kW with an output of 120kW DC.
Each model is capable of 40a * 277v = 11kW
They needed 365 amps DC (over 330 amps) for the new 70-75kWh cars in order to bump them up to near 120kW, which is the motivation for "145kW".
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