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Making the case for an Apple solution to the looming Tesla battery crisis

Discussion in 'Tesla, Inc.' started by eye.surgeon, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. eye.surgeon

    eye.surgeon Active Member

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    Whether or not you are aware, there is a looming crisis facing Tesla. Beginning in spring 2019, a software update, with hidden unannounced functionality, reduced the battery capacity and charging speed of many older cars. The details can be found in this 460 page + thread.

    Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

    Much research by members here show clearly that it was done to reduce the risk of fires and battery failures during the warranty period, but by crippling the battery, not solving the actual battery issue. Thousands of cars have been affected, and whether or not you are, there is significant evidence that you will be eventually. I have been, sadly.

    Apple did a very similar thing recently when they released iOS 10.2.1 which secretly throttled the CPU performance of the iPhone 6, iPhone 6s and iPhone SE with older batteries due to unexpected battery failures. When this was discovered there was an outrage. In response Apple issued a short letter explaining the situation. They announced that the cost of replacing an out of warranty battery would be reduced from $79 to $29. They explained the reason for the slowdown and apologized for doing it in secret.

    Tesla, take a lesson here. Come clean with what you did. Explain the reasons why. And if you can't actually fix the problem, drop the cost of replacement battery packs accordingly. Apple did the wrong thing, followed by the right thing. So far Tesla, you have just done the wrong thing. Make it right.
     
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  2. Chaserr

    Chaserr Hyperactive Hyperdrive

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    I would instantly pay to upgrade my battery if they offered it. Even before the feds force Tesla to replace any batteries, I will do it. They once claimed upgrades would be available, and they have done them occasionally - I don't understand why they wouldn't want to make the sale and save themselves a few recall costs when it could be a profit instead.

    Apple has lost dozens of class action suits over their throttling. They are still losing them in fact, I don't know if they managed to win any but they had something like 30+ ongoing class actions simultaneously.

    tesla will lose too, but the bigger problem is the recall dodging. They had to report the problem within 5 days of discovery... 7 months ago. They still haven't reported anything and the NHTSA is actively investigating now.
     
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  3. rowdy

    rowdy Member

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    I don't even see why Tesla have to lose money on this.

    They could offer a new 85kWh replacement under recall (free)
    Or upgrade to new 100kWh for $15k
    Or upgrade to new 130kWh for $30k

    I think a lot of owners would choose to upgrade.... Could easily balance out those who choose not to
     
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  4. MichaelP90DL

    MichaelP90DL Active Member

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    Excellent point. Tesla, I want a new battery pack for $29.
     
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  5. TampaRich

    TampaRich Member

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    So we give up a few miles of range for better long term battery life. What’s the down side?
     
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  6. CLK350

    CLK350 Member

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    Well - since Tesla is battery constrained, it makes more sense for them to use the batteries in new cars than replace those in older cars. My guess is that once they get the battery production up to speed, they would me more amenable to offering a paid (at some reduced cost) upgrade. Especially once they start producing the (anticipated) newer dry electrode improved batteries. Question is, will they do so before your battery warranty runs out ... and will they honor some sort of recourse after that.
     
  7. Matias

    Matias Active Member

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    #7 Matias, Jan 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
    More than 30 miles is not ”few”. The down side is that it reduces cars range.

    Not to mention the reduced supercharger speeds, which is an another limit Tesla has recently imposed.

    When you combine those two, long road trips take much longer time.
     
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  8. tga

    tga Supporting Member

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    And a peak power (and therefore acceleration) reduction because the battery voltages is capped at an artificially low limit. And drastic reductions in regen on some cars.
     
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  9. VT_EE

    VT_EE Active Member

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    The peak power issue really only surfaces if you typically charged above the capped voltage, which for most users appears to be around 10%, meaning the new 100% is the old 90%. Given that you are only supposed to charge to 90% unless on road trips, there wouldn't be any peak power loss for the vast majority of time. Am I missing something? Is there some other mechanism in play here that reduces power during everyday usage?
     
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  10. tga

    tga Supporting Member

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    Not really, no, but that doesn't really excuse it. Plus regen loss impacts daily driving/usability/safety for those impacted.
     
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  11. VT_EE

    VT_EE Active Member

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    That's good. As far as reduced regen goes, this was done across all models leading me to believe it has more to do with increased efficiency than pack preservation. Heating up the pack to enable higher regen is a waste of energy if all you care about is efficiency. It would be nice though if Tesla had a setting where we could select whether or not to use heavy pack heating for higher initial regen.
     
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  12. tga

    tga Supporting Member

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    I am not capped (but I do have reduced Supercharging; 15-20kW). I currently see reduced (not 0) regen when the pack is cold, but it quickly goes back to normal when it warms. Honestly, I don't think it's any different than it was last winter.

    It sounds like people who are capped are seeing 0 regen at times (cold? wam? I'm not sure), so there's definitely a change for the impacted packs.

    I am seeing the reduction in pack heating (ie, doesn't turn on during preconditioning if not charging anymore), so that seems like an across the board change, whether for efficiency or just a bug, who knows. It would be nice if we had real release notes/communication.
     
  13. ChadFeldheimer

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    Assuming you're willing to routinely charge to 100% after the capping occurs - in spite of warnings against doing so.
     
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  14. 2012MS85

    2012MS85 Member

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    #14 2012MS85, Jan 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
    Tesla’s downgrade of my battery in my P85 has totally changed how I view what had been the best car ever, just a year ago when I bought it from the original owner who had perfectly cared for this Signature S since new. When I visit my mom in WI in the winter, I can no longer make it 188 miles from my Iowa home to hers. So I must Supercharge in IL. Here is my real-world change in performance from Dec 2018 to Dec 2019:

    Supercharging from 10% to 90% (minimum needed for a day trip, if using HEAT in winter, and driving the 70 mph speed limit) used to take 50 minutes (one year ago), but now takes 105 minutes (double the downtime!). My “A” battery was always capped at 90 kW, and a year ago it would peak at 87 kW (@48k miles). Today with 55k miles, it barely reaches 70 kW, before quickly sinking to 60 kW and it just keeps tapering down to slower and slower SC speeds. This is so frustrating that it makes me usually switch to using my far less fun Volt for my road trip home. :(

    When I bought my 6-year-old P85, its 90% was 225 miles, so 100% equated to 250 miles...vs 265 when new. A few weeks ago, my 90% charge was a dismal 185 miles (that equates to 205 miles @100%)...a loss of 45 miles in 2019! I firmly believe this is related to the OP-referenced software updates by Tesla to “protect” our batteries. But at what cost to us owners? I expected the same 1% loss per year as my first S85, which also was the same minor loss of range as this P85 over its first 6 years of life. Instead, Tesla gave me an 18% loss in 2019 :mad: I keep praying this is temporary, and a future software update will restore my range.

    Before buying my first used S, I researched the cost of buying a new 85 kWh battery from Tesla, which used to advertise a $12,000 price. I figured by the time I’d need to upgrade someday, Tesla’s/Panasonic’s costs would keep falling and sale prices to us would also fall. Wrong again! Tesla recently nixed that original $12k price and it’s now $25k! :eek:

    Finally, I bought the P85 because I love speed. Yet at the same time my charging speed dropped, I also noticed my acceleration performance drop off. My P85 0-60mph is now SLOWER than my 3 MidRange, as well as my first non-performance S :confused:

    So while I used to love DRIVING & ROAD-TRIPPING (including a 2,000-mile trek from Seattle to Davenport, Iowa, with 18 SC stops in sub-zero temps Dec 7-9, 2018), I now receive my greatest joy from staring at my SigRed P85 in the garage and dreaming of my great memories of how she used to be! :rolleyes:
     
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  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn Model Y custom Warming Stripes wrap.

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    Just a slight correction.
    Tesla never advertised, and you could never buy a $12,000 battery replacement.
    What you could buy, is a $12,000 battery replacement at some point in the future. I believe the term was eight years from purchase.
    The out of warrantee price in some early Model S cars was about $35k.
     
  16. 2012MS85

    2012MS85 Member

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    Understood. I had found a link to, I think, Tesla’s website forum/Q&A about someone inquiring what it would cost in 2020 when a 2012’s warranty ran out. And that was my concern...my “worst case” scenario that my warranty ran out, then the next day my battery failed...cause that’s usually how it works in my life with expensive crap breaking. So I had relied on a $12k out of pocket as my future max spend. But then AFTER purchasing my 2012 P85, I discovered my worse case cost just got twice as bad :eek: Any link or reference point to the $35k cost? Now we’re triple my worst case calculation ;)
     
  17. eye.surgeon

    eye.surgeon Active Member

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    #17 eye.surgeon, Jan 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
    The net result of capping capacity and reducing charging speed is for many people doubling the amount of time spent charging while travelling. Most people would consider this a significant downside.

    Also keep in mind that all evidence points to the downgrade being done to avoid warranty claims, not preserve the life of the battery for the owner. That's devious and also illegal.

    Tesla reset the battery temperature at which regen can occur, The net result is much less regen available, making the car less efficient. I notice it in California, imagine people in cold climates. In the Snowbelt it means essentially you won't have regen in the winter.

    This was not done to avoid having to heat the battery. It was done to avoid the strain of regen in a cold battery that was causing excessive in-warranty battery failures and also contributing to cell failures that cause fires.

    The correct response to Tesla's discovery that the batteries are not holding up to the promises made at the time of the sale is to fix or replace the battery, not cripple the battery. Imagine Chevy found that their Corvette V8 engine was failing a lot during the warranty period, so they used a software update to deactive 2 cylinders to reduce the strain on the engine. Would people be ok with that? Of course not. This is essentially what has happened.
     
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  18. NoirMS

    NoirMS Member

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    I've recieved 2 recall notices since purchasing a cpo 2015 70 ms... bought it 10/18.... both recalls state I need to do nothing and I will be contacted by Tesla... to this day, crickets....
     
  19. 2012MS85

    2012MS85 Member

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    Hopefully the yellow dotted lines on this photo explain what Tesla HQ has TAKEN from our vintage TESLAs (ergo, from us, the owners)! To obtain my P85’s original 470hp, it would equate to 350kW of power...and that top yellow dotted line says TESLA just grounded me from a huge chunk of my car’s potential power (fun) :mad: I expect some reduction because it’s January 5, and I live in the Midwest. But this limitation is drastically worse than a year ago! It’s 38F in my garage; once I go outside the temp falls to 32F...so the limitation gets even worse...if I put my GO pedal to the floor, there is nothing close to a 4.2 second 0-60...it’s closer to 6 seconds :( I would find the keys to my Plymouth Prowler if I wanted to drive a fast looking car that isn’t :rolleyes:

    726699FD-3DD3-4FA6-8757-B0B267BAC406.jpeg

    Then there’s the bottom yellow dotted line, which shows I have literally zero regen, and it stays at nil during my entire 20-minute drive to work every winter day. I love one-pedal driving with regen, but it’s non-existent this winter in my S. Same cold days, I can drive my 3, Volt, or ELR, and I have regen again. A year ago, I had it with my S. Only difference this year is Tesla is protecting itself from a battery warranty claim on all our 2012 batteries with less than a year remaining on our unlimited mile, 8-year warranty that was a great selling point when original buyers shelled out over $100k for that now broken promise :confused:
     
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  20. Chaserr

    Chaserr Hyperactive Hyperdrive

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    I've looked up some cars similar to mine on Tesla's CPO site to see what I could sell my car for, and the NHTSA shows recalls that still haven't been done on cars owned by Tesla. They don't seem to take recalls very seriously but it's probably just Tesla's generally nonexistent communications. Imagine being on Tesla's Compliance team and tryin g to reach someone at a service center to make them do a recall... I know I can't reach anyone at service and I doubt Tesla can either!
     
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