TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
Start a Discussionhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/tags/

Mandatory Autopilot Training + Refresher Training?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by ratsbew, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. ratsbew

    ratsbew Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    Messages:
    419
    I am a professional pilot and as such I'm very familiar with training programs and processes that are implemented in order to qualify individuals to operate complex/dangerous systems. It seems like it is asking for trouble to give consumers free reign over self driving systems (current or future FSD systems) with practically zero training as to the limitations and conditions under which it may be operated.

    I would propose mandatory hands on training by a certified instructor that includes "ground school" covering the system features, limitations, and operating restrictions followed by several hours of operation under the supervision of an instructor that covers a sampling of driving scenarios (freeway, city, urban, etc.).

    After initial certification there should be monthly testing (on the car's screen or by app/website) in the form of a multiple choice test.

    Yearly, the user should be required to complete some form of refresher training such as videos or computer based training.

    I know this sounds like a burden, but there really needs to be some form of training and accountability before putting someone in control of a system like this.
     
    • Disagree x 7
    • Like x 4
    • Funny x 2
  2. Phrixotrichus

    Phrixotrichus Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    Germany
    no. Just no. It´s inconvenient and makes a product less attractive and as such it won`t come.
     
  3. ratsbew

    ratsbew Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    Messages:
    419
    I guess I should specify that these would be legal requirements, not Tesla specific requirements.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Disagree x 1
  4. Phrixotrichus

    Phrixotrichus Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    Germany
    Ofc that would have to be a legal requirements but the car lobby will do anything to not let that happen for the reason I brought up.
    (and i hope they succeed ;) )
     
    • Like x 1
  5. BerTX

    BerTX Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,786
    Location:
    Texas/Washington
    I like the idea, but judging by the current situation that no training is required to get a drivers license, I find it unlikely.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Funny x 1
  6. JoaoD

    JoaoD Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2016
    Messages:
    220
    Location:
    Portugal, Porto
    So, everyone driving a car should have a driving lesson, is that it? :rolleyes:
     
    • Funny x 1
  7. boaterva

    boaterva Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2016
    Messages:
    2,652
    Location:
    Northern Virginia, USA
    No training? Tons of requirements for new (16-17 year olds) in Virginia... Do you mean a 25 yo that never had one? Or where, exactly? :)

    On an autopilot note, you could say that perhaps some sort of written exam could be required (I am NOT saying this...) but as we go along here, and things get more and more 'powerful', the knowledge of the 'driver' will be less and less 'required'. Not sure we need to start legislation that is always behind reality?
     
  8. N5329K

    N5329K Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    760
    Location:
    California
    The need for an avionics-specific "type rating" (which is pretty much necessary now) reflects the complexity and poor user interfaces designed into a lot of glass panels. When one button (or touch screen icon) is capable of multiple, context-dependent functions, you're just asking for a screw up. This sketchy approach seems to have migrated into the automotive world now, for good and ill. Mainly the latter, I'd argue.
    Robin
     
    • Love x 1
  9. DOCAL

    DOCAL Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Messages:
    168
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Virginia has specific requirements? Is that just for 16-17 year olds, or for everyone? When I took my driving test in California, I just booked the appointment, performed the required written and practical test, and got my license.

    For pilots regardless of age, the FAA requires an instructor sign off before you can take the written test, and one of the first things the examiner will do before you take the practical test is check your logbook for the required training. Which for most people is a minimum of 40 hours flight time, 20 of which must have been with an instructor, and it's broken down further into specific categories.
     
  10. boaterva

    boaterva Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2016
    Messages:
    2,652
    Location:
    Northern Virginia, USA
    Friend of mine's son had to take hours of classroom and driver's training. Sure changed since I got my license, um, a long time ago :D

    As for those that aren't teenagers, I have no idea. I could check the Virginia DMV, and have no idea what the deal is elsewhere. I was just responding to the 'no requirements/training' idea which I was laughing at!

    And based on what I see on the road, Level4/5 can't come too quickly! No one seems to know how to drive in the DC Metro area, with all the foreigners we have (diplomats and the like, wasn't being 'Murican...).


    Also quite familiar with FAA training, took 40 hours way back when in a Piper, got bailed out of the medical, eyes weren't good enough <sob>, been an aviation buff ever since though! (And live about a mile from IAD/Dulles!)
     
  11. BerTX

    BerTX Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,786
    Location:
    Texas/Washington
    Training is required to get an early license before the age of 18. A person can just wait, so training not required. 11 states do require training for all new drivers.
     
  12. Robert831

    Robert831 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    Messages:
    45
    Location:
    Watsonville, CA
    Imagine you're in the future, and manually driven cars have been outlawed for decades. That's all.
     
  13. modamoda

    modamoda Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2016
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    Greater Seattle Area
    I heard it's also for "sensor adjustments" before first use of AP. Unfortunately, I cannot find source now.
     
  14. MXWing

    MXWing Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,317
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Autonomous systems, rights and responsibilities should be in driver school curriculim and State motor vehicle departments since the concept is not unique to Tesla.

    I admire the intentions, but it won't fly unfortunately.

    Least resistance is the driver is responsible for everything which makes sense and is the way it is currently.

    Can't idiot proof AP, better idiots will be built to compensate.
     
    • Funny x 1
  15. cgiGuy

    cgiGuy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,299
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    While I think mandatory testing is unlikely, I think it would be very valuable to REQUIRE new owners to sit for a 10 minute video presentation or CBT on AP before they are allowed to take possession of the car. In that training, you could ensure that you pound in the idea that "you are still in control of this auto" and maybe avoid some of these accidents.

    BTW- I know there's a 1-hour familiarization appointment done by a Tesla delivery specialist, but I think there's too much room for deviation from the script. Make it a video or CBT.
     
  16. calisnow

    calisnow Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2014
    Messages:
    2,562
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Where's the data to back up your proposed regulation? The burden is on you to prove it is needed - not those who don't want it to prove that it is not needed. So far the only statistics we know is that the NHTSA and tesla claim that as soon as autopilot was switched on in October 2015 there was a 40% reduction in the accident rate.

    Given this information it would seem to be reckless - if not downright evil - to force people to jump through hoops that will doubtless reduce the number of people using autopilot - and thus increase car accidents.

    BTW I am also a pilot - using Tesla's autopilot safely is an order of magnitude easier than flying even a VFR bluebird day with flight following and a dual axis autopilot. I'm also backed up by about 15,000 miles of using autopilot thus far. There's no "class" to teach - tap on, tap off. Pay attention. That's it.
     
    • Like x 4
    • Love x 1
  17. voip-ninja

    voip-ninja Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    743
    How is the use of an AP system where the car is supposed to drive itself more dangerous and sophisticated than the act of piloting the automobile directly?

    The entire point of AP is to simplify the "driving" experience and eventually let the passenger(s) opt out of the driving experience if they choose to.... something that is critical as the boomer generation starts aging to the point where they don't want to give up their autonomy but might be dangerous behind the wheel of a car.

    An aircraft style "type rating" with a whole host of formal training requirements would pretty much make the entire autopilot dream that Tesla and others have dead upon arrival.
     
    • Like x 1
  18. Maaz

    Maaz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2014
    Messages:
    379
    Location:
    Torrance
    I agree there needs to be an on screen and voice walk through tutorial.
     
  19. Enthalpy

    Enthalpy New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Illinois
    I'm a senior reactor operator. I seriously agree. Personally I think regular driving exams should be performed when you get your license renewed, but I absolutely think there should be a rating on your license for automation.

    One of the biggest challenges when you have automatic control systems is being vigilant to identify when they fail and to take prompt (and correct) actions to stabilize the event and mitigate potential consequences. It's something we train on once every 6 weeks in the simulator to make sure we don't get into that mental lull from day to day operation where everything typically works correctly.

    I think having some type of license rating will minimize the number of incidents where someone fails to recognize the autopilot system is malfunctioning and stop the blind trust in the system that leads to some of the dashcam accidents we see.

    Just my opinion. I know a car isn't a nuclear reactor, but the basic principle about relying on your control systems is the same.
     
    • Disagree x 3
    • Like x 1
  20. GarrickS

    GarrickS Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Messages:
    132
    Location:
    Inglewood, CA
    If we had had a rash of AP-related crashes, then the NHTSA would just ban the tech or require changes. Since we haven't, there's no need for changes. We've actually already seen a reduction in crashes.
     
    • Like x 2

Share This Page