Mandatory Autopilot Training + Refresher Training?

[ratsbew]

I am a professional pilot and as such I'm very familiar with training programs and processes that are implemented in order to qualify individuals to operate complex/dangerous systems. It seems like it is asking for trouble to give consumers free reign over self driving systems (current or future FSD systems) with practically zero training as to the limitations and conditions under which it may be operated.

I would propose mandatory hands on training by a certified instructor that includes "ground school" covering the system features, limitations, and operating restrictions followed by several hours of operation under the supervision of an instructor that covers a sampling of driving scenarios (freeway, city, urban, etc.).

After initial certification there should be monthly testing (on the car's screen or by app/website) in the form of a multiple choice test.

Yearly, the user should be required to complete some form of refresher training such as videos or computer based training.

I know this sounds like a burden, but there really needs to be some form of training and accountability before putting someone in control of a system like this.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

no. Just no. It´s inconvenient and makes a product less attractive and as such it won`t come.

 

[ratsbew]

no. Just no. It´s inconvenient and makes a product less attractive and as such it won`t come.

I guess I should specify that these would be legal requirements, not Tesla specific requirements.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

I guess I should specify that these would be legal requirements, not Tesla specific requirements.

Ofc that would have to be a legal requirements but the car lobby will do anything to not let that happen for the reason I brought up.
(and i hope they succeed )

 

[BerTX]

I like the idea, but judging by the current situation that no training is required to get a drivers license, I find it unlikely.

 

[JoaoD]

I am a professional pilot and as such I'm very familiar with training programs and processes that are implemented in order to qualify individuals to operate complex/dangerous systems. It seems like it is asking for trouble to give consumers free reign over self driving systems (current or future FSD systems) with practically zero training as to the limitations and conditions under which it may be operated.

I would propose mandatory hands on training by a certified instructor that includes "ground school" covering the system features, limitations, and operating restrictions followed by several hours of operation under the supervision of an instructor that covers a sampling of driving scenarios (freeway, city, urban, etc.).

After initial certification there should be monthly testing (on the car's screen or by app/website) in the form of a multiple choice test.

Yearly, the user should be required to complete some form of refresher training such as videos or computer based training.

I know this sounds like a burden, but there really needs to be some form of training and accountability before putting someone in control of a system like this.

So, everyone driving a car should have a driving lesson, is that it?

 

[boaterva]

I like the idea, but judging by the current situation that no training is required to get a drivers license, I find it unlikely.

No training? Tons of requirements for new (16-17 year olds) in Virginia... Do you mean a 25 yo that never had one? Or where, exactly?

On an autopilot note, you could say that perhaps some sort of written exam could be required (I am NOT saying this...) but as we go along here, and things get more and more 'powerful', the knowledge of the 'driver' will be less and less 'required'. Not sure we need to start legislation that is always behind reality?

 

[N5329K]

I am a professional pilot and as such I'm very familiar with training programs and processes that are implemented in order to qualify individuals to operate complex/dangerous systems. It seems like it is asking for trouble to give consumers free reign over self driving systems (current or future FSD systems) with practically zero training as to the limitations and conditions under which it may be operated.

I would propose mandatory hands on training by a certified instructor that includes "ground school" covering the system features, limitations, and operating restrictions followed by several hours of operation under the supervision of an instructor that covers a sampling of driving scenarios (freeway, city, urban, etc.).

After initial certification there should be monthly testing (on the car's screen or by app/website) in the form of a multiple choice test.

Yearly, the user should be required to complete some form of refresher training such as videos or computer based training.

I know this sounds like a burden, but there really needs to be some form of training and accountability before putting someone in control of a system like this.

The need for an avionics-specific "type rating" (which is pretty much necessary now) reflects the complexity and poor user interfaces designed into a lot of glass panels. When one button (or touch screen icon) is capable of multiple, context-dependent functions, you're just asking for a screw up. This sketchy approach seems to have migrated into the automotive world now, for good and ill. Mainly the latter, I'd argue.
Robin

 

[DOCAL]

No training? Tons of requirements for new (16-17 year olds) in Virginia... Do you mean a 25 yo that never had one? Or where, exactly?

Virginia has specific requirements? Is that just for 16-17 year olds, or for everyone? When I took my driving test in California, I just booked the appointment, performed the required written and practical test, and got my license.

For pilots regardless of age, the FAA requires an instructor sign off before you can take the written test, and one of the first things the examiner will do before you take the practical test is check your logbook for the required training. Which for most people is a minimum of 40 hours flight time, 20 of which must have been with an instructor, and it's broken down further into specific categories.

 

[boaterva]

Virginia has specific requirements? Is that just for 16-17 year olds, or for everyone? When I took my driving test in California, I just booked the appointment, performed the required written and practical test, and got my license.

For pilots regardless of age, the FAA requires an instructor sign off before you can take the written test, and one of the first things the examiner will do before you take the practical test is check your logbook for the required training. Which for most people is a minimum of 40 hours flight time, 20 of which must have been with an instructor, and it's broken down further into specific categories.

Friend of mine's son had to take hours of classroom and driver's training. Sure changed since I got my license, um, a long time ago

As for those that aren't teenagers, I have no idea. I could check the Virginia DMV, and have no idea what the deal is elsewhere. I was just responding to the 'no requirements/training' idea which I was laughing at!

And based on what I see on the road, Level4/5 can't come too quickly! No one seems to know how to drive in the DC Metro area, with all the foreigners we have (diplomats and the like, wasn't being 'Murican...).


Also quite familiar with FAA training, took 40 hours way back when in a Piper, got bailed out of the medical, eyes weren't good enough <sob>, been an aviation buff ever since though! (And live about a mile from IAD/Dulles!)

 

[BerTX]

No training? Tons of requirements for new (16-17 year olds) in Virginia... Do you mean a 25 yo that never had one? Or where, exactly?

On an autopilot note, you could say that perhaps some sort of written exam could be required (I am NOT saying this...) but as we go along here, and things get more and more 'powerful', the knowledge of the 'driver' will be less and less 'required'. Not sure we need to start legislation that is always behind reality?

Training is required to get an early license before the age of 18. A person can just wait, so training not required. 11 states do require training for all new drivers.

 

[Robert831]

Imagine you're in the future, and manually driven cars have been outlawed for decades. That's all.

 

[modamoda]

I heard it's also for "sensor adjustments" before first use of AP. Unfortunately, I cannot find source now.

 

[MXWing]

Autonomous systems, rights and responsibilities should be in driver school curriculim and State motor vehicle departments since the concept is not unique to Tesla.

I admire the intentions, but it won't fly unfortunately.

Least resistance is the driver is responsible for everything which makes sense and is the way it is currently.

Can't idiot proof AP, better idiots will be built to compensate.

 

[cgiGuy]

While I think mandatory testing is unlikely, I think it would be very valuable to REQUIRE new owners to sit for a 10 minute video presentation or CBT on AP before they are allowed to take possession of the car. In that training, you could ensure that you pound in the idea that "you are still in control of this auto" and maybe avoid some of these accidents.

BTW- I know there's a 1-hour familiarization appointment done by a Tesla delivery specialist, but I think there's too much room for deviation from the script. Make it a video or CBT.

 

[calisnow]

I am a professional pilot and as such I'm very familiar with training programs and processes that are implemented in order to qualify individuals to operate complex/dangerous systems. It seems like it is asking for trouble to give consumers free reign over self driving systems (current or future FSD systems) with practically zero training as to the limitations and conditions under which it may be operated.

I would propose mandatory hands on training by a certified instructor that includes "ground school" covering the system features, limitations, and operating restrictions followed by several hours of operation under the supervision of an instructor that covers a sampling of driving scenarios (freeway, city, urban, etc.).

After initial certification there should be monthly testing (on the car's screen or by app/website) in the form of a multiple choice test.

Yearly, the user should be required to complete some form of refresher training such as videos or computer based training.

I know this sounds like a burden, but there really needs to be some form of training and accountability before putting someone in control of a system like this.

Where's the data to back up your proposed regulation? The burden is on you to prove it is needed - not those who don't want it to prove that it is not needed. So far the only statistics we know is that the NHTSA and tesla claim that as soon as autopilot was switched on in October 2015 there was a 40% reduction in the accident rate.

Given this information it would seem to be reckless - if not downright evil - to force people to jump through hoops that will doubtless reduce the number of people using autopilot - and thus increase car accidents.

BTW I am also a pilot - using Tesla's autopilot safely is an order of magnitude easier than flying even a VFR bluebird day with flight following and a dual axis autopilot. I'm also backed up by about 15,000 miles of using autopilot thus far. There's no "class" to teach - tap on, tap off. Pay attention. That's it.

 

[voip-ninja]

How is the use of an AP system where the car is supposed to drive itself more dangerous and sophisticated than the act of piloting the automobile directly?

The entire point of AP is to simplify the "driving" experience and eventually let the passenger(s) opt out of the driving experience if they choose to.... something that is critical as the boomer generation starts aging to the point where they don't want to give up their autonomy but might be dangerous behind the wheel of a car.

An aircraft style "type rating" with a whole host of formal training requirements would pretty much make the entire autopilot dream that Tesla and others have dead upon arrival.

 

[Maaz]

I agree there needs to be an on screen and voice walk through tutorial.

 

[Enthalpy]

I am a professional pilot and as such I'm very familiar with training programs and processes that are implemented in order to qualify individuals to operate complex/dangerous systems. It seems like it is asking for trouble to give consumers free reign over self driving systems (current or future FSD systems) with practically zero training as to the limitations and conditions under which it may be operated.

I would propose mandatory hands on training by a certified instructor that includes "ground school" covering the system features, limitations, and operating restrictions followed by several hours of operation under the supervision of an instructor that covers a sampling of driving scenarios (freeway, city, urban, etc.).

After initial certification there should be monthly testing (on the car's screen or by app/website) in the form of a multiple choice test.

Yearly, the user should be required to complete some form of refresher training such as videos or computer based training.

I know this sounds like a burden, but there really needs to be some form of training and accountability before putting someone in control of a system like this.

I'm a senior reactor operator. I seriously agree. Personally I think regular driving exams should be performed when you get your license renewed, but I absolutely think there should be a rating on your license for automation.

One of the biggest challenges when you have automatic control systems is being vigilant to identify when they fail and to take prompt (and correct) actions to stabilize the event and mitigate potential consequences. It's something we train on once every 6 weeks in the simulator to make sure we don't get into that mental lull from day to day operation where everything typically works correctly.

I think having some type of license rating will minimize the number of incidents where someone fails to recognize the autopilot system is malfunctioning and stop the blind trust in the system that leads to some of the dashcam accidents we see.

Just my opinion. I know a car isn't a nuclear reactor, but the basic principle about relying on your control systems is the same.

 

[GarrickS]

If we had had a rash of AP-related crashes, then the NHTSA would just ban the tech or require changes. Since we haven't, there's no need for changes. We've actually already seen a reduction in crashes.