The grid here is specified to 230V +/-10%, so 253-207V. This shouldn't come as a big surprise...You can if you charge at the superchargersBut charging at normal outlets might be problematic indeed. I guess Tesla will not come out with a separate UMC, but instead just extend the usable range of voltages. As I understood > 240V and < 208V are problematic regions.
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Mario Kadastik
Active Member
Also I've now had three charge start issues with scheduled charging. The EV box has a relay which can be heard when it connects/disconnects when the car starts to pull power and I have awoken (well my wife has, I'm far deeper sleeper) to the relay going on/off/on/off/... at the start of charging. Prior two times the stop charging/unlock/pull out cable/put cable in has worked. This time I had to do it 3x and in the last actually close the charge port. I also got a 12V battery warning during it. In the end the car started charging and I'm happy it did. This is on a wallbox with attached Type-II cable that I have been charging on for 1.5 months. I think the 5.8.4 firmware is at fault here, not the cold weather as those three incidents have all happened within the last 1.5 weeks which is a bit less than I've had the 5.8.4. So far coming home and plugging in the cable has always started charging, it's now only been random incidents with scheduled charging. We tried yesterday with the ranger to reproduce it, but to no avail. Also sucks that Tesla roadside assistance isn't 24x7. Today as I called it I got transferred to local car help service automatically and a 5 minute confusing discussion ensued when I tried to tell my VIN to them without realizing (was sleepy) I wasn't speaking to Tesla.
Shot them off an e-mail, but I really think the 5.8.4 is the one at fault here and is probably related to the Norwegian issues as well, not only the UMC. As this started rolling out only recently it coincides with cold weather so the cold weather issue correlation might be accidental. I've got the ticket open with Tesla so I'll try to push it as well.
Shot them off an e-mail, but I really think the 5.8.4 is the one at fault here and is probably related to the Norwegian issues as well, not only the UMC. As this started rolling out only recently it coincides with cold weather so the cold weather issue correlation might be accidental. I've got the ticket open with Tesla so I'll try to push it as well.
Mario Kadastik
Active Member
Ok, got a phone call from Tesla that gave me an update on the charging issues that I have faced. There were a few tidbits that might be of interest to others as well so I'm sharing it.
Firstly, when the charge port opens the high voltage battery is disconnected from the 12V system. The 12V feeding returns when the charge port closes and brake pedal is pressed. Therefore people who put their car into scheduled charging say 6PM and the scheduled charging starts at 6AM keep their 12V going without backup for 12h. During that time even if the car is connected to the grid the 12V is not touched at all therefore if you plan to keep the car in cold conditions etc try to limit the time charge port is open or start charging earlier at lower amps because the 12V is supported again when charging begins. This behavior will change in the next firmware, then even when not charging, but connected to wall power the 12V is supplied from the wall.
Secondly, the main reason for charging failures is abnormal variations in current. The new firmware (promised to me latest by this Friday) will make the car more tolerant allowing it to take what ever the wall supplies (so if the wall gives 13A, then 7A for a while, then 13A then the car won't stop charging in the new fw, but will take what it gets). It should also make the charging more tolerant for other things, but they didn't disclose what. They'll try to push it to me today so we'll see how things change. Also it should address the generic issues of charging failing to start when scheduled. So this is the Norway fix release And I understand the generic push out for affected cars starts tomorrow or latest Friday.
I have to say that it looks like Tesla Norway is dropping the ball as Tesla in Tilburg or Copenhagen who are dealing with me keep me very well informed of all developments and I do feel the support.
Firstly, when the charge port opens the high voltage battery is disconnected from the 12V system. The 12V feeding returns when the charge port closes and brake pedal is pressed. Therefore people who put their car into scheduled charging say 6PM and the scheduled charging starts at 6AM keep their 12V going without backup for 12h. During that time even if the car is connected to the grid the 12V is not touched at all therefore if you plan to keep the car in cold conditions etc try to limit the time charge port is open or start charging earlier at lower amps because the 12V is supported again when charging begins. This behavior will change in the next firmware, then even when not charging, but connected to wall power the 12V is supplied from the wall.
Secondly, the main reason for charging failures is abnormal variations in current. The new firmware (promised to me latest by this Friday) will make the car more tolerant allowing it to take what ever the wall supplies (so if the wall gives 13A, then 7A for a while, then 13A then the car won't stop charging in the new fw, but will take what it gets). It should also make the charging more tolerant for other things, but they didn't disclose what. They'll try to push it to me today so we'll see how things change. Also it should address the generic issues of charging failing to start when scheduled. So this is the Norway fix release
And I understand the generic push out for affected cars starts tomorrow or latest Friday. I have to say that it looks like Tesla Norway is dropping the ball as Tesla in Tilburg or Copenhagen who are dealing with me keep me very well informed of all developments and I do feel the support.
Mario Kadastik
Active Member
I agree. Therefore while I understand that the Norwegian car owners are pissed about those issues I would say Tesla in general hasn't quite dropped the ball. They are working on those issues and the engineers I have talked to are quite understanding and know of the issues and fixes coming and do keep in good contact.
I'm planning to roadtrip when I get my CHAdeMO adapter. Then using superchargers, CHAdeMO, Type-II (i.e. IKEA) and hotel 3x16A charging I should be fine for any road trip there using just standardized plugs and no Norway odd schukos
If you're looking for a nerdy daytrip for a nuclear scientist in Norway, may I recommend Vemork, near Rjukan? It's the site of the heavy water (deuterium oxide) factory for the nazi nuclear programme during WWII. During WWII the site was sabotaged by Norwegian parachute commandos, and then bombed by 100+ US bombers, so that the nazi nuclear programme didn't get enough heavy water for their atomic bomb. The WWII equivalent of Stuxnet.
On the way there you'll probably drive past Fensfeltet near Ulefoss, Norway, one of the world's largest thorium deposits. Thorium was first identified in a sample from Lauvøya, an island in the scenic archipelago near Brevik. Both places are nice for kayaking.
NigelM
Recovering Member
The safety requirements for charging in Europe are not the same as the US for several reasons. One difference as I understand it is that the European "charging box" (the EVSE in the US) cuts off after a single ground fault detection. In the US, a few retries are allowed for about 15 minutes, I don't recall exactly. Also, the leakage current threshold is lower in Europe, as the voltages are higher. Nothing in the US is more than 120 volts with respect to ground in residential areas. I recall the fault threshold is about 0.02 amps in the US, and 0.003 amps in Europe, someone please correct if I am wrong.
The three-phase portable charging box (UMC in Tesla terms) is quite a challenge in Europe, I am not surprised Tesla has delayed shipment. In my view the issue is that the standards document (IEC 62752) is not mature yet. It is theoretically understandable to require detection and protection against every possible type of mis-wired outlet, but in practice it is perhaps not workable and some of the provisions (like switched protective earth) might actually not be allowed in the US, as it is arguably more dangerous than what they are trying to protect against in some situations.
If it is any comfort, the BMW Mini E was notoriously unreliable when it came to charging if your supply voltage was on the high side of the range, which typically happened in winter. I used to turn on every electrical device in the house to get the voltage low enough to start charging the car. It was a very nice change when we switched to the Norwegian designed Think City EV, which pretty much always charges. Perhaps if it will charge in Norway, it will charge anywhere.
I would not pay much attention to comparisons with Japanese EVs. I have seen some Japanese plug-in cars that will charge regardless of no protective earth connection at all (called safety ground in the US). It is easy to increase mission readiness by compromising safety.
And yes, I also recommend visiting Rjukan. I saw it back when the hydro plant was still producing. But this time of year I would stop in Telemark and go cross-country skiing. Telemark has the autobahn of cross country ski trails.
The three-phase portable charging box (UMC in Tesla terms) is quite a challenge in Europe, I am not surprised Tesla has delayed shipment. In my view the issue is that the standards document (IEC 62752) is not mature yet. It is theoretically understandable to require detection and protection against every possible type of mis-wired outlet, but in practice it is perhaps not workable and some of the provisions (like switched protective earth) might actually not be allowed in the US, as it is arguably more dangerous than what they are trying to protect against in some situations.
If it is any comfort, the BMW Mini E was notoriously unreliable when it came to charging if your supply voltage was on the high side of the range, which typically happened in winter. I used to turn on every electrical device in the house to get the voltage low enough to start charging the car. It was a very nice change when we switched to the Norwegian designed Think City EV, which pretty much always charges. Perhaps if it will charge in Norway, it will charge anywhere.
I would not pay much attention to comparisons with Japanese EVs. I have seen some Japanese plug-in cars that will charge regardless of no protective earth connection at all (called safety ground in the US). It is easy to increase mission readiness by compromising safety.
And yes, I also recommend visiting Rjukan. I saw it back when the hydro plant was still producing. But this time of year I would stop in Telemark and go cross-country skiing. Telemark has the autobahn of cross country ski trails.
This thread? and the TMC forum in the news :
Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA) reportedly having charging issues in Norway due to very low temperatures
Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA) reportedly having charging issues in Norway due to very low temperatures
Mario Kadastik
Active Member
I can confirm that 5.8.6 seems to fix the scheduled charging issue. I had issues when the car was cold soaked and it started scheduled charging (i.e. I wanted it to start charging at 7AM but arrived home 6PM so 13h of standing in -20C). It just wouldn't charge unless you turned on heating in the car and warmed the battery a bit. Got 5.8.6 yesterday with Tesla calling to confirm that this should fix my issue so yesterday I came home around 5PM and set scheduled charging at 9AM (so that people at Tesla would be in office) and it's -19C outside (-15C in the car right now so it's really cold soaked) and the car started charging at 9AM like clockwork. It's currently drawing only 6 amps and not charging very fast, but that's because it's warming up the battery, that's normal and what I had observed prior to 5.8.4 as well. I'd even assume the issue was not with cold per-se, but with 5.8.4 firmware that caused most of the charging issues that got fixed in 5.8.6.
bsd
Member
You should dig deeper. That article would appear to be dated Jan 28, but it is reporting third-hand information. Its cited source is a NY Times article from Jan 21 which is itself an incorrect summary of an article from "Norway in English" dated Jan 20:
Norwegian winter parks popular Tesla electric cars
The original article describes the issues as being with the charging cables.
Has it really? How?
Do you mean just because spring has arrived in Norway, and autumn and cold weather is 6 months away?
Or because someone has fixed the problem with open charge port disconnecting the 12V battery causing it to drain while charging, and voltages in the Norwegian power grid are often outside the specs of Teslas current UMC?
And BTW, our cars can still only charge at 26A and not 32A, causing one extra hour charging at 22kW chargers. This problem has also not been resolved.
Mario Kadastik
Active Member
The open charge port disconnecting 12V was fixed months ago. It was either 5.8.6 or 5.8.7 that fixed it. I know because I had this issue in Estonia too and had Tesla charging engineers working on it and they pushed this release to me with detailed information on what changes with a followup call. And indeed, the moment I got the update my charging has been flawless since and the one 12V warning I ever got was from the night before the firmware update and this was specifically addressed by the engineer as having been fixed. So now the 12V is supported even if the charging hasn't started yet (previously opening the charge port disconnected the main battery from the 12V leaving the latter on its own). The same update was also supposed to address a ton of cold weather related issues (and the peculiarities of the Norwegian grid) and it did fix mine (if the car was cold soaked it didn't start scheduled charging, it attempted and failed and attempted and failed and ...). So yes ... that all has been fixed.
Now with regard to the 26A (or 13A on single charger), that was mentioned by JB during their combined trip with Elon that it's being fixed and will require a hardware fix. Noone's quite understood what part though and the fix hasn't been released yet (I asked a couple of weeks ago from a vehicle technitian).
I was unable to drive due to a 12V problem AFTER that software update. The software update fixed a lot for most owners (by increasing the tolerances for what is considered a charging error?), but didn't fix everything. Tesla gave me a Mennekes charging cable in order to be able to charge reliably at home, which has worked great and solved my problems. The 12V depletion problem only seems to happen while charging with the Tesla UMC.
There's a thread on the Norwegian forum where other owners are reporting 12V problems after charging has completed. Even new cars delivered mere days ago have 12V problems after charging with the Tesla UMC.
http://elbilforum.no/forum/index.php/topic,12032.105.html
The rule of thumb here is still to unplug the charging cable and close the charge port as soon as possible after charging has completed. Many owners who park at airports think twice about leaving the car charging at the airport while away because they don't want to risk getting a 12V problem after charging has completed.
Apparently, after charging is completed, the Tesla UMC will only disconnect one phase. If voltage fluctuations occur in the power grid, a charging error will be detected in the car and the 12V battery will be disconnected. Unless the errors are cleared with the brake pedal, the 12V battery will deplete itself with 12-24 hours. Apparently, a new Tesla UMC for Norway is needed to rectify the problem.
Wow. Talk about a lazy implementation of a three phase UMC. If you are going to build it, build it right. I am surprised Tesla messed up like this, but it is consistent with some issues going on in the US as well. Tesla seems to have a general blind spot for the electric grid, and electrician tradecraft.
The North American UMC wasn't designed correctly either. The interchangeable adapters used pins that were too small resulting in overheating and adapter melting in some cases. They are providing a band aid fix for their adapters by replacing all our 50A adapters with ones that have a built in heat fuse. The correct solution would be to replace all our UMCs as well with ones that have bigger pins, but Tesla isn't doing that.
So is Tesla going to replace all your UMCs in Norway?
The North American UMC wasn't designed correctly either. The interchangeable adapters used pins that were too small resulting in overheating and adapter melting in some cases. They are providing a band aid fix for their adapters by replacing all our 50A adapters with ones that have a built in heat fuse. The correct solution would be to replace all our UMCs as well with ones that have bigger pins, but Tesla isn't doing that.
So is Tesla going to replace all your UMCs in Norway?
The Oslo service centre vaguely indicated that my Tesla UMC would be replaced with a new version at some point in the future.
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