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Market politics

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by Lessmog, Feb 3, 2018.

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  1. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Well-Known Member

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    #3741 lolachampcar, May 11, 2019
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
    Your' us against them is not going to solve it. If you are interested in addressing the problem, as opposed to fighting the good fight as you see it, you may want to look deeper into what it is that we have become that promotes the divisions between us.

    I'm not saying you are wrong with your assessment of the Republicans; I'm just saying that lumping half the country in with "the bad guys" will only serve to get you more of the same. Democrats are not immune from misbehaving if improperly incentivized. The idea that a clown like Trump can get elected was only possible because of someone like Hillary. Not taking responsibility for allowing both those characters on the national stage to run for president is simply putting your fingers in your ears, head in the sand and yelling "I'm right". Results are predictable.

    And yes, you did get the Stop defending the indefensible part right :)
     
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  2. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Except it's not really half of the country. Fact is Trump "won" because enough non party swing voters went his way to win the Electoral vote. So less than half the country voted for him and of those who did a percentage of them were not Republicans. Many of them have expressed regret over their vote, they didn't expect him to win and they wanted to "protest" against what they assumed would be a Hillary win.
     
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  3. Oil4AsphaultOnly

    Oil4AsphaultOnly Active Member

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    Again with this? Didn't we already conclude that there's no "fixing" us/them? Having people act selflessly is the solution, but isn't an option. Even if "we" can act selflessly, you can't convince "them" to do so. Right now, the only viable solution is to replace the republican leadership and remove corporate/wealthy influence in politics (versus removing money in general).
     
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  4. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Well-Known Member

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    and you make my point for me. How was it we ended up with two throughly useless humans as our only options?
     
  5. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Well-Known Member

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    we were not always this way :) I'm not convinced we can not be better.
     
  6. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Actually that was not your point. Your point was that half the country would have to be "bad guys", I explained why that was not the case.
     
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  7. K3jSe7Llp7

    K3jSe7Llp7 Closed

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    I live in my hometown in the impoverished California central valley and lived in east LA and taught high school in Los Angeles for years. I'm not making anything up, and swearing at me won't change the facts. I use this specific language because when I asked the chief of a pacific island why they were so restrictive toward foreigners he said they were afraid of being overrun, even though no foreigners lived there. This chief was educated in San Diego so I asked him whether he'd observed being overrun there, to which he just smiled. I really got tired of unjust inequitable nonreciprocal treatment.
     
  8. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

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    Duverger's Law, first-past-the-post election systems, etc. It's actually math.

    I support approval voting for President -- how about you?
     
  9. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    In politics, past is often prologue, but not always. 2016 was a unique situation. For Hillary Clinton there was a lot of talk about it being "her turn". To the early Boomer feminists, she was the epitome of their own struggles. To much of the rest of the electorate opinions were not that favorable.

    There is a breed of feminist I call "kick 'em in the crotch" feminists who seem to want to hurt men rather than just be considered equal. Some conservative talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh have made straw man arguments about feminists holding up these relative few as an example of the whole. Most feminists just want an equal playing field and have no problem with men in general, just the cavemen who hold onto outdated ideas.

    The trail blazers who worked hardest to change the culture were mostly early Boomers and a larger percentage of them became the "kick 'em in the crotch" variety. Many men who are otherwise big champions of equality for women are put off by the hostility of these women. (I'm among them, I strive not to judge people based on inborn characteristics and I expect the same in return.)

    Hillary puts off that "kick 'em" vibe and it turns off a lot of people, including women born after the initial wave. My SO was kicked out of a feminist group in college for suggesting that not all men were bad people. She's a middle Boomer.

    The start of the 2016 campaign was more of a coronation for Hillary than a real primary battle. The pundits were saying the White House was out of reach for the Republicans until they dealt with the demographic shifts in the electorate and quit appealing to only white voters. As Republicans jumped into the race, the pundits were expecting Jeb to win the nomination, though the two Cubans were given an outside shot.

    Trump was the car wreck candidate. The media covered him obsessively because it got people watching. Most of the people watching couldn't believe anyone that crazy could seriously run for president. Because he had been a reality TV star and those in the know understand there is a certain degree of theater there, a lot of people thought the crazy was an act and he would drop it eventually.

    The conservative news media had primed their electorate for a hostile take over by someone like Trump. Few Republicans in power believed any of the nutty stories like Hillary Clinton and some other Democrats were running a child sex ring out of a pizza parlor in the DC area, but more conservative media viewers did than they thought. It was also inconceivable that someone who actually believed that sort of BS could win anything important.

    People think and act differently when their lymbic systems are amped up. Most people become less willing to explore new ideas and will want a strong man to lead them out of the trouble. That's why GW Bush's approval ratings soared after 9/11. His handlers knew exactly how to poise himself as the strongman to lead the US out of the disaster. By 2008 he had a sub-30 approval rating because people's lymbic systems had recovered and they saw him for the failure he was.

    The conservative machine tries to keep as many people's lymbic systems perpetually primed. If 5% of what Fox News said was true, I'd be angry too, but the most accurate news they do is exaggerating the truth. Trump's one talent is knowing how to tell a certain type of person what they want to hear. He already believed a lot of the stuff on Fox, so selling himself to Republicans came easily.

    One difference between the parties is the Democrats are constantly changing. The Republicans keep doubling down on the last strategy that seemed to work hoping to rekindle the Reagan magic. When McCain lost in 2008 and Romney lost in 2012 their post-mortem decided they weren't being conservative enough. To the rest of the country, they lost because they were too conservative.

    The Democrats look at what did and didn't work and try to come up with a system that works better. The 2020 nomination battle is the complete opposite of 2016. In 2016 all the talk was of a Hillary coronation, but this round it's wide open. Biden is way out ahead because now Democrats lymbic systems are amped and Biden represents old fashioned steady leadership as well as he's "Obama's guy". He's the closet thing we can get to Barack Obama again. But the Democratic Party is being very careful to stay out of the fight this time. They don't want to be accused to playing favorites again.

    Trump is doubling down on speaking to his base at the cost of the periphery who got him elected. Trump's base was what got him to the general election, but the people who actually made the difference were people who were scared and angry at how life has been treating them the last 30 years, the Hillary haters who wanted to post a protest vote, and some people who just wanted the throw a wrench in the machine to see what would happen.

    Hillary is not running in 2020, so the anti-Hillary voters are a lot less interested in voting for Trump. A lot of those who have seen their life go down hill since the 80s have seen the slide accelerate under Trump. And a lot of the wrench throwers are regretting what they did.

    None of these people are automatic Democratic votes. Some may vote for Trump again, some may be open to voting Democratic, and probably quite a few will stay home. Trump got a lot of white voters who hadn't voted in years to vote again, but while some of those people are on the Trump bandwagon, a lot are probably going back to inactive voters.

    The two parties are not the same. This false dichotomy has also been fostered by the svengalis behind conservative media. They knew they could only sell their brand of crazy to a certain segment of the population, but they worked to sell the rest of the public on the idea the Democrats are at least as bad. As a result, there are a lot of people who loath both parties.

    Our geographic paths have crossed to some extent. I grew up in Monterey Park, two blocks from East LA City College at the time we actually were getting overrun with immigrants from Taiwan. Having experienced it, the reality is a lot less bad than the concept a lot of people have in their minds. There is cultural friction as the foreign group settles in, but more often than not the foreign group goes more native than vice versa. Monterey Park already had a large native born Asian population before the influx and there was really not that much difference culturally between the native born Asians, Hispanics, and whites. There were some different traditions observed, but overall there was more similarity than differences.

    My older sister moved to Bakersfield when I was starting high school and I spent a lot of time there when I was in high school and college. I got a good feel for the Valley culture. When I read American Nations I could see the cultural differences between coastal California and inland California from first hand experience.
     
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  10. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

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    #3750 neroden, May 11, 2019
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
    There are definitely Pacific islands which were actually overrun by hostile foreigners. The history of Hawaii is informative.

    But unless you are a member of one of the Native American tribes of the California, who definitely were overrun by hostile foreigners (it was close to genocide) -- or perhaps one of the Mexican settlers who were overrrun by hostile foreigners during the US-Mexican War in the 19th century -- you have simply not been "overrun by hostile foreigners". That's just ludicrous.

    Are there gangs of foreigners shaking you down for money on the street? Stealing your land and building their own houses on it, then kicking you out?

    I mean, if you'd said "California is being (re)populated by immigrants", I would have shrugged; sure, it is. But they're not in any sense *hostile*.

    A bunch of immigrants who want to become American are what we call "friendly foreigners". And they aren't "overrunning" you, either, unless you've actually been run over by a car. Having a bunch of immigrants who want to go native is -- well, it's the American melting pot.

    I can think of cities which actually were overrun by hostile groups, recently, within the US, though the hostile groups were domestic, not foreigners. This city was created by a cult which wanted to establish a local religious theocracy, and has been quite effective; if you're not a member of the particular cult, they treat you very badly, and they try to prevent people from escaping. including reports of *stonings*. Kiryas Joel, New York - Wikipedia There are other examples. That's what I'd call "overrun" by "hostile".
     
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  11. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    A hostile take over is different from just different people moving to a new place. The Hispanics coming to the United States don't want to turn the US into their home country, they want to be American. It's American with a Hispanic flavor, but it's more American than Hispanic. My SO's father's family escaped Mexico in 1931 during a peasant uprising and had to make a life in the US. Family gatherings are different from my family, the food is definitely different, and there are other cultural differences, but when push comes to shove, my SO's generation and younger are completely American.

    I saw the same thing in East LA growing up with both the Asians and the Hispanics. We also had a large Armenian population. They all had different family traditions, but when it came to adapting to the greater culture, they were all completely American.

    Even where hostile invaders take over a place, the invaders tend to go a bit native, though the native culture takes a big hit too. Hawaii is a different culture than most of the rest of the US. The British rulers of India tended to "go native" after a while too.

    In the European invasion of the Americas, where the native population was big enough, some of the native culture survived, such as in Mexico. But where the native culture was small, the invaders supplanted them and the original culture was largely wiped out.

    During the Age of Exploration/Invasion the European colonizers were far more hostile to native populations than virtually all cultural bigots today. The way many Europeans treated the natives they conquered was so severe by modern standards it would probably make many modern white supremacists ill.

    Back in the 80s I first started hearing about the "plot" the Mexicans had to take back the Southwest by flooding the region with immigrants who would rise up and take back the region for Mexico. It's a paranoid conspiracy theory with no basis in reality. A lot of Hispanics with family in other countries would like to be able to visit family more easily, but they identify as Americans and very few would want to see Mexico take back the SW US.
     
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  12. K3jSe7Llp7

    K3jSe7Llp7 Closed

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    #3752 K3jSe7Llp7, May 11, 2019
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
    Do I understand correctly that your position is that white people are all bad people because of certain historical incidents unrelated to me? (Isn't this the definition of racism?) This was what I thought when I began traveling to subsistence cultures. I lived in extreme cognitive dissonance for about two years until I could restructure my brain to accommodate my observations. I was young and barely managed to accomplish this. Sorry for the dissonance of my observations, but I only bother to tell people what they don't know.
    Ps- I was born in the us, that makes me a native American. Maybe you meant indigenous american?
     
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  13. K3jSe7Llp7

    K3jSe7Llp7 Closed

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    #3753 K3jSe7Llp7, May 11, 2019
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
    Yes, cool, I'm familiar with Monterrey Heights and affluent Asian San Gabriel Valley, close relatives are Asian. I began building the voyaging canoe in South Pasadena then moved the project to Oxnard.
    But I would say east LA is Boyle Heights, Lincoln Heights, and on down to Southgate, you know 13th street where so many Latinos are headed to connect with their homies.
     
  14. K3jSe7Llp7

    K3jSe7Llp7 Closed

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    consider a bumper sticker I saw in east LA that said, 'para la raza todo, por el otro nada'
    A bumper sticker!
     
  15. K3jSe7Llp7

    K3jSe7Llp7 Closed

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    Only a few months ago I asked for a cup of coffee in a bus station in Malaysia. I gave the high price listed on the sign but the vender said no the price is double. I paid the double price and, giving the coffee back, told the vender I would not drink her coffee because I hated her racial pricing. The woman's father started battering me, then another man pushed me from behind onto the floor. They hit me repeatedly with a stick, injuring my hand. This is your fault neroden and those who are stuck in your groove. I'm sorry to say this because I respect you and identify with you, but this is due to your patronizing handouts programs. I've been battered at least a dozen times by people of color. Of course you do not experience this living in white affluent liberal enclaves like Ithica.
     
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  16. TheTalkingMule

    TheTalkingMule Distributed Energy Enthusiast

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    A look inward might clarify the root of these international beatdowns. I've found if I'm not an asshole, people of other cultures are generally quite nice to me. I don't live-troll coffee kiosks for instance.
     
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  17. ggr

    ggr Roadster R80 537, SigS P85 29, M3P 80k

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    You seem to think that just anyone can come to the US and work? You're wrong about that. And I bet if you're a doctor and want to move to that pacific island, you'd be welcomed.
     
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  18. Curt Renz

    Curt Renz Active Member

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    In addition to the proposed outrageous annual flat annual registration fee for electric cars being unfair to retirees and other low mileage drivers, consideration has not been given that the added electricity costs for EV owners are taxed. Meanwhile the state incurs substantial expenses for emissions testing stations which EVs do not visit. Once EVs become ubiquitous, those stations can be closed.

    For now the state needs to encourage a more rapid transition to EVs to greatly reduce air pollution and global warming. Other states still allow income tax credits to encourage the purchase of EVs. Illinois ended its similar program, and it needs to be revived.

    The annual car registration fees should be based on mileage driven for each car. Modern cars including EVs provide over-the-air data including mileage to their manufacturers. This can be shared with the state. Meanwhile, the state records odometer readings during emissions tests. If that is considered insufficient, transponders can be attached to odometers as is done for tollway trips.

    The proposed $1000 annual fee for EVs appears to be inspired by auto dealership groups that fund Sen. Sandoval’s campaigns. Dealers hope to stave off the adoption of EV’s because they are low maintenance, while dealers depend primarily upon parts and service for their profits. In particular they hope to damage EV maker Tesla due to its direct to consumer sales and service methods. The veiled motive for the proposed $1000 fee would be to choke off demand for EVs. That is contrary to the intent of the treasured American free competitive enterprise system. Would you not agree that is un-American?

    Fellow Illinois residents please write your legislators, governor and local newspapers. I did.
     
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  19. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    A professional woman can't have a "kick 'em" vibe when they refuse to divorce their serial adulterer husband.

    Hillary Clinton's vibe is selfish, arrogant, ruthless, robotic, corporate.

    She showed her political incompetence in 2008 in the very first primary debate, and the Democratic Party engine should have moved on at that point, but they didn't.

    Fortunately, though too late, the Democrats know supporting her was a huge mistake and they now have much better alternative female candidates coming out of their ears. I expect Hillary Clinton quickly to become a footnote in history.
     
  20. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    You could have simply not purchased the product and walked away instead of trying to lecture them. I suspect it's your attitude more than anything else which has contributed to your repeated abuse.
     
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