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So you are defending throwing someone in jail for expression of free speech using chalk on a sidewalk.
No, I'm saying the facts seem to be different than what you presented. Yes it was an over reaction but they were told what they were doing was illegal, and I guess technically it was, and that they would be arrested if they did it.
Gotcha, just so we are clear where you stand - you are saying ONE WRONG justifies ANOTHER WRONG?
No I'm saying that your attempt to equate a warning and subsequent arrest of these people to beatings and kidnapping of peaceful protestors in unmarked vans are no where near the same level of "wrong". You're worried about "antifa" and "cancel culture" when much more damage is being done by the government on a daily basis.
 
Yeah, b/c the WP has a history of being fully accurate. One outlet says they did have permits, another says they didn't.

But let's continue this discussion - I haven't seen permits mentioned in ANY article for the BLM protesters painting on sidewalks in WDC. I haven't seen permits for ANY of the Antifa protesters breaking windows in Seattle and Portland.

There is a CLEAR double-standard at play for anyone on the right that wants to exercise their freedom of speech.

The left has embraced "Cancel Culture" as a weapon to silence opposing viewpoints.

When I search for this story, I see a lot of sources in right wing media, but little outside it. The Washington Post article cited by @JRP3 is one of the few. I found an article I thought was outside that bubble, but at the bottom it said it was republished from the Daily Caller.
After arresting pro-lifers, DC police reveal they made just 4 arrests for defacing property during weeks of riots - Alpha News

In any case, the story divulges some details near the bottom. The two people arrested were given citations and released. Which means they got a ticket. There was a permit requested and issued, but it was only to assemble, not to do any marking of the streets, which required a separate permit, even if the substance used was washable.

The reason the two were arrested was when the police arrived and told them they couldn't draw on the sidewalk, they kept going. It sounds to me that the police arrested them more because they didn't stop when told to than anything else. Instead of being booked for defying police orders, they were simply given citations for a relatively minor offense and released.

The article is vague about it, but trying to decipher it, it looks like the Metropolitan Police said that most of the protesters who were identified and are wanted for arrest are wanted by federal police for defacing federal property than for anything they did within the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan Police. So they aren't making it a high priority to do the jobs of federal police for them.

One thing that is being lost on both ends of the political spectrum today is some people have lost sight of the degree of things. Two things may be bad, but one may be worse than another. What Al Franken did that forced him to resign from the Senate was wrong, but what Bob Packwood did (for years) was far worse.

Unfortunately the segment is not on his show's website, but Bill Maher had an excellent discussion about cancel culture (a predominantly leftist thing) on his show last week with a couple of liberals who signed an open letter calling for it to end. It was a productive conversation about how we're losing track of nuance.

I have posted two articles over the weekend that at least some of the damage done in protests in Minneapolis and in Virginia during the BLM protests was done by right wing activists, not by anybody there for the purpose of the protests. Most of the protesters who did damage have not been identified, or police are not talking about what organizations, if any, the ones they have identified belong to.

I know from talking to people who were at WHO protests in Seattle, that all the property damage they personally witnessed were done by people who were not part of their group. They showed up, smashed windows nearby, and then disappeared.

I have also known people first hand or second hand who have been at the BLM protests in Portland. They didn't witness any violence until the feds showed up. The BLM protests in Portland had calmed down significantly from late June to mid-July with the only property damage being some graffiti. The mayor and police chief had been working with the protest organizers to reduce disruption and to stop property damage. The number of protesters had dropped significantly too.

When the feds were in Portland, they often would escalate things with any excuse. For example a protester would throw a firework (like a smoke bomb) and the feds would reply with lots of tear gas, rubber bullets, and pepper balls.

After some heavy use of tear gas in the early protests the state of Oregon banned the use of it except under some defined extreme emergencies. All the tear gas used in July was from the feds.

But back to the point about scale of things. A year ago yesterday an armed gunman with a political agenda stormed a Walmart in El Paso, Texas and killed 23 people.

A lot of people were injured in Portland. Most by law enforcement
Burns, bloody wounds, broken bones: Injuries mount at Portland protests

Though there is at least one story of someone getting kicked in the head in a confrontation May 30 between BLM protesters and counter protesters.

Most of the damage in Portland was property damage, and the bulk of that was graffiti. Not great, but in the scale of things, it's not as bad as some other things that have happened around political protest in the last few years.

IMO
Graffiti - Not good
Broken windows and looting - worse
People injured - worse
People permanently maimed - still worse
People dead - worst outcome

Trump sent in federal officers to Portland over graffiti. There are protesters who will have health problems the rest of their life due to the actions of the federal officers. The feds improperly escalated the situation IMO.

@wdolson ~ Not just science. And, thank you for your comment!

Hummm, and you (not wdolson) did (chose) not to believe me. So, if an admiral tells you, will you understand there are systemic problems within the military? The army and navy were here from the beginning of time, oops, founding of our country. No air force, no coastguard, and no reserves ~ do not get me started on a space force. The marines were an add on too ~ even though our tactics at the time (fighting the British) were gorilla oriented/successful.

I was just focused on science, but most institutions have issues like this. I worked at Boeing back in the late 80s and early 90s and back then there were a lot of stupid rules. The group I worked in was a bunch of renegades who went their own way. The long term head of the group was forced out and the new guy's mandate was to bring the organization to heel. It ruined both morale and productivity. When they started laying people off I volunteered to go. My seniority was pretty low (the group had taken on a lot of people who had been cut loose by the defense side a few years before and they were more senior than me), so I probably would have been among the first 10% out anyway.

The military has always had problems. In peacetime there is a pecking order among officers that academy trained are superior to those who became officers other ways, but the experience of WW II when many people who would not normally become officers got commissioned the whole thing about academy trained being superior was proven false. By late war many senior officers had not gone the academy route and they were performing better than academy graduates in a number of cases.

But it isn't unique to the US forces. I read the memoir of an RAF pilot who became the first reservist to become a Wing Commander in WW II. Before the war the reservists had to wear an R on their collar tabs, but it was done away with during the war. He kept wearing the collar tabs just to tick off the top brass.

You've talked about how you became an officer despite your lack of formal education. I'm sure you ran into the academy people are superior thing.

@bkp_duke, if I may, I would like to try talking with you here. FYI ~ When I state something, usually it is based on firsthand experience or is personal. My education is challenged at best. My IQ by IQ standards might be somewhere along 100 at best. My life's partner (47 years) or wife's IQ is somewhere between 140 and 160. I did not begin to read until the seventh grade ~ therefore, my grammar, spelling and sentence structure is less than perfect. My brain does not bend to my whims; I have to work at putting my foot in my mouth, and I do it quite well:rolleyes: I do not in any way think of myself special or better than the next person. Yet, others that perceive themselves better than me enjoy kicking the $hit out of me.

From my perspective, when a group, regardless of origin wants to protest, the usual standard is to request a permit.

From my perspective, when an individual is killed, murdered, loses his/her life as perceived illegality right before our eyes, people take it as an affront, and immediately protest. No time for a permit. Kind of like spontaneous combustion.

People today are hurting from may angles, and what you are seeing is a result of forced spontaneous combustion which is neither left or right, but a combination thereof, from my perspective.

My brother-in-law, a California farmer, used to talk with me on a level playing field. As Fox News began dominating the media world, he and my sister no longer sought my opinion or confided in me. Therefore, my view, not just in this one example is based on firsthand experience.

I am a soldier through and through, and by definition, should be a Republican and religious; but I am not ~ people who are of those stereo types have provided me firsthand experiences that they are not what they claim to be ~ therefore, I will never be a Republican or religious person again. I am an interesting spiritual hybrid, just sayin. FYI ~ I wanted to be a minister, and I voted Republican up until Reagan. And, Carter is the only President during my lifetime/experience to ever give the military an average pay raise of 14%. Reagan included, only gave 2, 3 or 4% raises since.

I can go on, but I have to fix breakfast for my wife and I:D

I believe the current requirement to be commissioned is a 110 IQ. It used to be 120. But IQ scores are a fairly narrow measure of intelligence. (I know complete idiots who belong to Mensa.)

Your communication skills are far beyond at least two US presidents I can think of. Just because your formal education was not as good as many of your peers, that doesn't mean much in the real world (I've also known PhDs who were idiots). A poor education can artificially lower an IQ score.

You may not have some of the specialized education some of us have, but you hold your own here.
 
When I search for this story, I see a lot of sources in right wing media, but little outside it. The Washington Post article cited by @JRP3 is one of the few. I found an article I thought was outside that bubble, but at the bottom it said it was republished from the Daily Caller.
After arresting pro-lifers, DC police reveal they made just 4 arrests for defacing property during weeks of riots - Alpha News

In any case, the story divulges some details near the bottom. The two people arrested were given citations and released. Which means they got a ticket. There was a permit requested and issued, but it was only to assemble, not to do any marking of the streets, which required a separate permit, even if the substance used was washable.

The reason the two were arrested was when the police arrived and told them they couldn't draw on the sidewalk, they kept going. It sounds to me that the police arrested them more because they didn't stop when told to than anything else. Instead of being booked for defying police orders, they were simply given citations for a relatively minor offense and released.

The article is vague about it, but trying to decipher it, it looks like the Metropolitan Police said that most of the protesters who were identified and are wanted for arrest are wanted by federal police for defacing federal property than for anything they did within the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan Police. So they aren't making it a high priority to do the jobs of federal police for them.

One thing that is being lost on both ends of the political spectrum today is some people have lost sight of the degree of things. Two things may be bad, but one may be worse than another. What Al Franken did that forced him to resign from the Senate was wrong, but what Bob Packwood did (for years) was far worse.

Unfortunately the segment is not on his show's website, but Bill Maher had an excellent discussion about cancel culture (a predominantly leftist thing) on his show last week with a couple of liberals who signed an open letter calling for it to end. It was a productive conversation about how we're losing track of nuance.

I have posted two articles over the weekend that at least some of the damage done in protests in Minneapolis and in Virginia during the BLM protests was done by right wing activists, not by anybody there for the purpose of the protests. Most of the protesters who did damage have not been identified, or police are not talking about what organizations, if any, the ones they have identified belong to.

I know from talking to people who were at WHO protests in Seattle, that all the property damage they personally witnessed were done by people who were not part of their group. They showed up, smashed windows nearby, and then disappeared.

I have also known people first hand or second hand who have been at the BLM protests in Portland. They didn't witness any violence until the feds showed up. The BLM protests in Portland had calmed down significantly from late June to mid-July with the only property damage being some graffiti. The mayor and police chief had been working with the protest organizers to reduce disruption and to stop property damage. The number of protesters had dropped significantly too.

When the feds were in Portland, they often would escalate things with any excuse. For example a protester would throw a firework (like a smoke bomb) and the feds would reply with lots of tear gas, rubber bullets, and pepper balls.

After some heavy use of tear gas in the early protests the state of Oregon banned the use of it except under some defined extreme emergencies. All the tear gas used in July was from the feds.

But back to the point about scale of things. A year ago yesterday an armed gunman with a political agenda stormed a Walmart in El Paso, Texas and killed 23 people.

A lot of people were injured in Portland. Most by law enforcement
Burns, bloody wounds, broken bones: Injuries mount at Portland protests

Though there is at least one story of someone getting kicked in the head in a confrontation May 30 between BLM protesters and counter protesters.

Most of the damage in Portland was property damage, and the bulk of that was graffiti. Not great, but in the scale of things, it's not as bad as some other things that have happened around political protest in the last few years.

IMO
Graffiti - Not good
Broken windows and looting - worse
People injured - worse
People permanently maimed - still worse
People dead - worst outcome

Trump sent in federal officers to Portland over graffiti. There are protesters who will have health problems the rest of their life due to the actions of the federal officers. The feds improperly escalated the situation IMO.



I was just focused on science, but most institutions have issues like this. I worked at Boeing back in the late 80s and early 90s and back then there were a lot of stupid rules. The group I worked in was a bunch of renegades who went their own way. The long term head of the group was forced out and the new guy's mandate was to bring the organization to heel. It ruined both morale and productivity. When they started laying people off I volunteered to go. My seniority was pretty low (the group had taken on a lot of people who had been cut loose by the defense side a few years before and they were more senior than me), so I probably would have been among the first 10% out anyway.

The military has always had problems. In peacetime there is a pecking order among officers that academy trained are superior to those who became officers other ways, but the experience of WW II when many people who would not normally become officers got commissioned the whole thing about academy trained being superior was proven false. By late war many senior officers had not gone the academy route and they were performing better than academy graduates in a number of cases.

But it isn't unique to the US forces. I read the memoir of an RAF pilot who became the first reservist to become a Wing Commander in WW II. Before the war the reservists had to wear an R on their collar tabs, but it was done away with during the war. He kept wearing the collar tabs just to tick off the top brass.

You've talked about how you became an officer despite your lack of formal education. I'm sure you ran into the academy people are superior thing.



I believe the current requirement to be commissioned is a 110 IQ. It used to be 120. But IQ scores are a fairly narrow measure of intelligence. (I know complete idiots who belong to Mensa.)

Your communication skills are far beyond at least two US presidents I can think of. Just because your formal education was not as good as many of your peers, that doesn't mean much in the real world (I've also known PhDs who were idiots). A poor education can artificially lower an IQ score.

You may not have some of the specialized education some of us have, but you hold your own here.

TL,DR
 
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Trump attempting to cripple the post office to cause chaos with mail in voting may be working.


Where it might have the most impact is with Republican voters. As of tonight the VA is screaming because veterans, especially ones in rural areas are seeing up to 2 week delays in getting prescriptions.

Trump's bashing of mail in voting is having virtually in impact on the opinions of independents and Democrats, but he's turning Republicans against it and there are a lot of Republicans signed up for permanent mail in voting. Delays in the postal service is also going to have more impact on rural mail than on urban and suburban mail. States with well established mail in programs also have drop boxes for ballots and they are easy to find one nearby if you live in an urban or suburban area.

We're only in August. How crazy is this going to get before November?
 
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Trump attempting to cripple the post office to cause chaos with mail in voting may be working.


Have you ACTUALLY read what the proposed changes are to the PO?

Basically, now, mail carriers can wait around during the day (usually the AM) for mail trucks to show up with additional mail for their routes. All this waiting causes additional overtime hours. The proposal is simple: carriers just go on their routes with the mail they have on hand. If a mail supply truck is late arriving, the carriers simply deliver that mail the NEXT DAY.

Any competitively run business would have already implemented something like this to reign in overtime expenses spiraling out of control.
 
Louis DeJoy also tried to close a bunch of post offices with very short notice. Joe Manchin brought it to public attention the other day when his constituents were contacting him saying there were notices up in their post office saying that it was closing this month or the hours were being slashed. That violates a statute in place that sets a procedure to close a post office.

USPS Plans to Slash Hours at Many Post Offices, Hoping to Save A Buck

My SO came across something last night that DeJoy owns stock in UPS and FedEx.
 
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Have you ACTUALLY read what the proposed changes are to the PO?

Basically, now, mail carriers can wait around during the day (usually the AM) for mail trucks to show up with additional mail for their routes. All this waiting causes additional overtime hours. The proposal is simple: carriers just go on their routes with the mail they have on hand. If a mail supply truck is late arriving, the carriers simply deliver that mail the NEXT DAY.

Any competitively run business would have already implemented something like this to reign in overtime expenses spiraling out of control.
Delaying mail until the NEXT DAY means deliveries keep backing up. Trucks are a fixed size, they can't suddenly expand to take the additional load of extra mail from the day before. The post office is not a for profit business nor should it be run like one. Trump put one of his crony donors in charge and he's trying to cripple it, saying they should charge 4 times as much, which would push the more profitable package business to private carriers.
 
Delaying mail until the NEXT DAY means deliveries keep backing up. Trucks are a fixed size, they can't suddenly expand to take the additional load of extra mail from the day before. The post office is not a for profit business nor should it be run like one. Trump put one of his crony donors in charge and he's trying to cripple it, saying they should charge 4 times as much, which would push the more profitable package business to private carriers.

Mail has been declining in volume for 2 decades. Your argument doesn't pass the sniff test.

The PO has to fund it's own MASSIVELY underfunded and out of date pension. It is run like a for-profit venture, and has been for years. It doesn't get government money. At the very least, it should break even by it's own mandate.

EDIT - just about everyone else with a job in society has a degree of productivity measurements they have to live up to. Allowing mail carriers to wait around for a delayed truck goes against any and every kind of productivity measurement that has any basis in objectivity.

Have you been to a PO counter lately? Not all, but a lot of the interaction is so slow-rolled by the staff it is ridiculous. Almost every minor question must be "elevated to a supervisor".
 
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At my post office, there is almost always a line, sometimes out the door before the pandemic, now more frequently out the door because of social distancing. The clerks are always running full out and frequently the local post master is doing package pick up and as well as other things that don't require a financial transaction. Frequently the parking lot is full and cars are waiting to get in backed up to the nearest intersection. I usually park on the street and walk in. We have a PO box there so I'm there at least once a week. They had to add a large bank of more PO boxes a few years ago and this last year added a large bank of package lockers outside.

This post office serves our town and the rural county to the east of us. There is a post office in the next town to the west that was built in the 1920s and was closed down a few years ago, but because of demand, they re-opened it.

Living on the edge of a metro area (the official urban growth boundary is a block from my house), I can see how vital the post office is for rural residents. Most UPS and FedEx packages go into the mail system for rural addresses and are delivered by the post office. My SO's ex (they're still friends) lives in a small town in the rural area to the east (though served by a different post office than ours). They have seen delivery times increase by up to a week since the new post master general took over.

There are a lot of people pretty ticked off over there.
 
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Mail has been declining in volume for 2 decades. Your argument doesn't pass the sniff test.
Sniff again, the number of postal workers has also been declining for 2 decades. Also while first class mail volume has dropped package mail volume has increased, (doubled in the last 10 years), as has then number of delivery points, something those of you with a skewed viewpoint seem to ignore.
A decade of facts and figures | Postal Facts - U.S. Postal Service

Investigative report

 
Sniff again, the number of postal workers has also been declining for 2 decades. Also while first class mail volume has dropped package mail volume has increased, (doubled in the last 10 years), as has then number of delivery points, something those of you with a skewed viewpoint seem to ignore.
A decade of facts and figures | Postal Facts - U.S. Postal Service

Investigative report


I don't ignore it. Packages are FAR less profitable than 1st class mail (extremely profitable because almost all of it can be machine sorted). The lower relative margins on packages are at the root of the Orange moron's fight with the USPS's contract with Amazon. Which, incidentally, I NEVER saw PO trucks out and about on a Sunday until they started delivering Amazon packages.
 
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I've seen the exact opposite, that packages are profitable:

While it’s true that letter mail has declined, technology has led to a rise in package delivery stemming from e-commerce — and the overall result has been sufficient to produce operating profits in three of the past four years, averaging nearly $1 billion annually. That, mind you, without a dime of taxpayer money; by law, USPS relies on earned revenue for its operations. So if USPS takes in more money than it spends on normal business expenses (including health benefits and pensions), why is there red ink? The answer has little to do with technology or employees and everything to do with flawed public policy. In 2006, Congress mandated that USPS do something no other U.S. entity, public or private, is required to do: pre-fund future retiree health benefits decades into the future. That $5.8 billion annual charge accounts for almost all postal “losses.”

Fredric Rolando, Washington

The writer is president of the
National Association of Letter Carriers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...00cfa6-48b2-11e8-8082-105a446d19b8_story.html
 

Actually, packages are not separated out in USPS financial reports, the WP article presumes they are profitable, but no one really "knows". This article makes some great points specifically about how could shipping something like a Trombone across country for $20, be profitable.

There's more than one reason the Postal Service is losing money


According to USPS's own internal memo, late and "extra" delivery trips cost the service $200 million annually.
USPS warns staff of temporary mail delays as it cuts ‘soaring’ delivery costs | Federal News Network

The changes about reducing overtime and NOT allowing mail carriers to wait for delayed trucks, according to the memo, should “As we adjust to the ongoing pivot, which will have a number of phases, we know that operations will begin to run more efficiently and that delayed mail volumes will soon shrink significantly”

Furthermore:
“We have an expensive and inflexible business model that has largely been imposed on us and that we cannot easily change,” DeJoy said in his video message. “But I did not accept this position in spite of these challenges. I accepted this position because of them, and because I want to work with you in addressing them.”


This sums up USPS in a nutshell - an INFLEXIBLE business model. Inflexible business models are always doomed to fail (just like car dealerships cannot readily compete with Tesla's business model, which has far more flexibility).


And besides, even if packages WERE profitable (which I dispute), Amazon has been building out their own fleet accordingly. The USPS will eventually lose the bulk of business from it's single largest customer, as they are already seeing volume declines from Amazon as more Amazon trucks go into service.
 
shipping something like a Trombone across country for $20, be profitable.
Polyester trombone case. That seems reasonable, it's not as if that's traveling all by itself in a truck, it's one item along with hundred-thousands of other items packed in a semi for much of the journey. Also, from the same article:

"The Postal Service has limited tools to control its overhead. Laws and political pressures harry its every effort to reduce delivery frequency (presently mandated at six days per week) and shutter money-losing post offices."

While it might seem like closing poor performing offices makes sense it would also likely negatively impact more rural and lower income citizens.

I'm not suggesting that changes aren't needed, I'm saying that the post office is unique in it's mandate which limits it's ability to adapt to a changing market, thus it can't be operated like a business.
If Amazon is going to have it's own fleet then raising prices on packages won't help.
 
Polyester trombone case. That seems reasonable, it's not as if that's traveling all by itself in a truck, it's one item along with hundred-thousands of other items packed in a semi for much of the journey. Also, from the same article:

"The Postal Service has limited tools to control its overhead. Laws and political pressures harry its every effort to reduce delivery frequency (presently mandated at six days per week) and shutter money-losing post offices."

While it might seem like closing poor performing offices makes sense it would also likely negatively impact more rural and lower income citizens.

I'm not suggesting that changes aren't needed, I'm saying that the post office is unique in it's mandate which limits it's ability to adapt to a changing market, thus it can't be operated like a business.
If Amazon is going to have it's own fleet then raising prices on packages won't help.

I don't disagree on that point. There needs to be a presence in some rural communities.

My big beef was hearing about postal carriers waiting on delayed trucks before going on their rounds, and then racking up overtime. As a business owner, that chaps my ass severely.
 
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