Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Market politics

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
There is not going to be a trade war, hence the winning. I agree that if the world wanted to band together to wage was against the US, the US would suffer. It's a good thing they don't also want their own people to suffer for no actual gain aside from spite. My guess is that this tiny tariffs are just a negotiating ploy, because tariffs never work. But in a negotiating, you must believe the otherwise is willing to do what they say they are going to do. If governments are subsidizing steel and then dumping that steel in the market to harm competitors and control the market, then it's the responsibility of your government to protect you against that because you have no recourse against a foreign governments because you don't have any aircraft carriers. Again, these are highly Targeted and fairly small tariffs historically. Washing machines and solar? Clearly targeted at China and Mexico in preparation for NAFTA and TTP which Trump pulled is out of to get a better deal and protection against dumping.

Clearly the market figured this out yesterday the same way I did, which is why I was buying calls all day while others where buying puts.

You don't have to like Trump to understand what he is trying to do. He needs to have leverage that is real or there is no negotiating. There has been a lot of talk and rarely any action on things like dumping, currency manipulation and IP theft. This president is crazy enough to actually do something about it and China and Mexico know that now.
We have been taking it lying down for too long. We can't afford it anymore with 20 going on 30 trillion in debt. The alternative is actually worse. Inflation and or weaker currency. Both would be very bad for us and the rest of the world.

I would have thought the latest round of resignations and indictments might finally have started giving the kool aide drinkers acid reflux and second thoughts but apparently not.

"But in a negotiating, you must believe the other side is willing to do what they say they are going to do."
Except that the other side in question is someone who announced tariffs without consulting anyone outside the WH, who's WH advisors all advised against doing it. And whose pattern is to say one thing Monday and the opposite by mid Week.

"these are highly Targeted"

Except they would be imposed across the board on all countries exporting steel and aluminum regardless of whether they are guilty of dumping or not.

"It's a good thing they don't also want their own people to suffer for no actual gain aside from spite."

Good to know that leaders of China and Russia are so sensitive to the purchasing desires of their people.

"We can't afford it anymore with 20 going on 30 trillion in debt."

Right, 20 trillion from unfair trade? Just maybe a few trillion from Federal budget deficits over past 25 years?

Notable firings and resignations of the Trump administration:
TBD - Jared Kushner for having meetings in WH with lenders to raise hundreds of millions in loans to bail out his company.
Feb. 28: Hope Hicks
Feb. 27: Josh Raffel
Feb. 7: Rob Porter

Dec. 13: Omarosa Manigault Newman
Dec. 8: Dina Powell
Sept. 29: Tom Price
Aug. 25: Sebastian Gorka
Aug. 18: Steve Bannon
July 31: Anthony Scaramucci
July 28: Reince Priebus
July 25: Michael Short
July 21: Sean Spicer
July 6: Walter Shaub
May 18: Mike Dubke
May 9: James Comey
May 5: Angella Reid
Feb. 13: Michael Flynn

Jan. 30: Sally Yates
 
I would have thought the latest round of resignations and indictments might finally have started giving the kool aide drinkers acid reflux and second thoughts but apparently not.

"But in a negotiating, you must believe the other side is willing to do what they say they are going to do."
Except that the other side in question is someone who announced tariffs without consulting anyone outside the WH, who's WH advisors all advised against doing it. And whose pattern is to say one thing Monday and the opposite by mid Week.

"these are highly Targeted"

Except they would be imposed across the board on all countries exporting steel and aluminum regardless of whether they are guilty of dumping or not.

"It's a good thing they don't also want their own people to suffer for no actual gain aside from spite."

Good to know that leaders of China and Russia are so sensitive to the purchasing desires of their people.

"We can't afford it anymore with 20 going on 30 trillion in debt."

Right, 20 trillion from unfair trade? Just maybe a few trillion from Federal budget deficits over past 25 years?

Notable firings and resignations of the Trump administration:
TBD - Jared Kushner for having meetings in WH with lenders to raise hundreds of millions in loans to bail out his company.
Feb. 28: Hope Hicks
Feb. 27: Josh Raffel
Feb. 7: Rob Porter

Dec. 13: Omarosa Manigault Newman
Dec. 8: Dina Powell
Sept. 29: Tom Price
Aug. 25: Sebastian Gorka
Aug. 18: Steve Bannon
July 31: Anthony Scaramucci
July 28: Reince Priebus
July 25: Michael Short
July 21: Sean Spicer
July 6: Walter Shaub
May 18: Mike Dubke
May 9: James Comey
May 5: Angella Reid
Feb. 13: Michael Flynn

Jan. 30: Sally Yates

How do this go from a discussion on trade to a get Trump post. BTW, look at any administration, people come and go all the time. Actually don't answer that because I don't care. Instead of getting into a political debate which is pointless here. I'll let the markets an results speak for me. If you're right, we are all doomed and Trump will be in hand cuffs. And if I'm right you will be whining about Trump for 7 more years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CaliBear1

Who knows. But I think I am starting to understand the Strategy. Trump is crazy and that works to his benefit in these matters. The reasons is that politicians often say things to make their voters happy but have no intentions of every doing them. Politicians all around the world know this and know that nothing is going to happen so they pump out their chest like N. Korea and stay things back. The problem with Trump is that he is crazy enough to do it and other politicians are starting to figure that out. That is why you cant just babble on about tariffs, you actually have to do them or they have no teeth. I believe this is all just a negotiating ploy, but I could be wrong. Maybe Trump wants to plunge the world into a massive trade war where everyone looses. Time will tell.
 
[QUOTE="Reciprocity, post: 2594565, member: 58331"

You don't have to like Trump to understand what he is trying to do. He needs to have leverage that is real or there is no negotiating. There has been a lot of talk and rarely any action on things like dumping, currency manipulation and IP theft. This president is crazy enough to actually do something about it and China and Mexico know that now.
.
Well said![/QUOTE]

On the Tariffs

The problem with both Wilbur Ross' statement in support of Trump and the quoted responses above is the single zero-sum assumption that you can do this industry by industry without considering secondary and tertiary effects. China, for example, is little affected by the tariffs and will not respond at all to any threat. That is their way to deal with bullies. Canada, on the other hand, has lots of hydro so has a competitive advantage on aluminum which is highly dependent on electricity. If I remember correctly, we actually export more steel to Canada than we import from them. If memory serves, how does this hurt them?

The Missing Link in the Argument

Among tertiary and perhaps fourth order effects, is the complicated planning process for any producers of finished products, like automobiles, and inflation induced by higher cost imports by retail consumers. This is too complicated for Trump supporters, including some labor unions who should have listened to Bernie had they the chance. Of course if you want to divide the labor movement against itself, our European allies, who are already threatening retaliation, and our northern and southern neighbors, then this disruption is a brilliant maneuver in a week fraught with bad karma. I haven't a feel for Japan's reaction. Russia, of course, will love it.

Dangers, Truth or Consequences

I hope you're right no trade war will ensue. But we have a few pimples erupting now. The major one is a continuing erosion in the authority of the presidency resulting in a more unpredictable international environment. Buddhists have a metaphor in an arrow someone has stuck in you. Anger at the pain is another arrow, especially when it clouds judgment in considering how to remove it or what to do after you recover. Trump likes to disrupt things in order to blame others. The really responsible folk try to clean house first, and then respond. Politics is like driving on ice; not for amateurs.

Hidden Benefit of Weaker Presidents

My best student critics were Libertarians. They were consistent on abortions and the death penalty, for example. Our after class discussions were the best I had, except for those over beer. I regret never asking them how they would finance government. I also regret not asking them about international politics. I assume from sniffing the atmosphere today that Libertarians are softer on foreign policy and aware of the crucial mistakes we have made since the Spanish American War. I am a revisionist on U.S. foreign policy so welcome a less assertive role. However, from a practical standpoint, the best we have done in the postwar world was the Liberal Economic Order, except for the way we muscled smaller states. As Trump says we can do with anyone who has a trade imbalance of $100,000,000 a year--so "a trade war win is easy."

An Example and Conclusion

The Marshall Plan was not at first excluded from Soviet Participation; Stalin eventually refused because of the reporting requirements so our Secretary of State, Jimmy Byrnes, was relieved. At the conference where these matters were discussed the representative from Czechoslovakia criticized the plan as a tool of western imperialism. According to his memoirs, Byrnes asked an aid, "didn't we give them $50 million last year?" After subsequent discussions with their delegation, Byrnes reports, "they were quiet." This has been going on for a long time. We shall see how antagonizing our allies with considerably larger economies respond. Maybe that explains why so many of our diplomats are resigning, including the most recent, our ambassador to Mexico.
 
Who knows. But I think I am starting to understand the Strategy. Trump is crazy and that works to his benefit in these matters...
I have no idea if Trump would be deemed legally insane. He certainly is ignorant and delusional. I think he absolutely intends to do this. he probably does not know how many cars BMW exports from the US, and probably cares less. I do think he means to do this and he can count on Wilbur Ross to think it's a good idea. On the other hand it is just possible that Cohn, Mathis, Tillerson and McMaster all scream loudly against this stupid and self-destructive move.
 

Nope. The only winners in a trade war between the US and the EU are non-US and non-EU countries. Tesla might be able to mitigate the damage better than GM or Ford, but it would still be hurt.

The best outcome would be for the EU to fall for the “Crazy Trump” schtick & acquiesce, letting the trade war fizzle out. Or for Trump to be distracted by a shiny object & forget all about tariffs, much like he’s forgotten all about building a wall.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Richgoogol
I have no idea if Trump would be deemed legally insane. He certainly is ignorant and delusional. I think he absolutely intends to do this. he probably does not know how many cars BMW exports from the US, and probably cares less. I do think he means to do this and he can count on Wilbur Ross to think it's a good idea. On the other hand it is just possible that Cohn, Mathis, Tillerson and McMaster all scream loudly against this stupid and self-destructive move.

You correctly leave out Kelly once listed as adult until he became corrupted, if not wrongly judged from the beginning with racist/sexist baggage of his own. Now Cohn and McMaster are rumored to have short half lives. That's a slim margin for dikes against a crazy guy's actions. We've seen this scenario before with Nixon. Trump has many enablers in Congress and a crucial segment of the media.

He may be sane but acts like a disturbed kid who enjoys torturing helpless animals while basking in the media attention which follows—positive or negative. What a deprived childhood he must have had that the adult has to struggle attracting such attention to himself. His insecurity is endless, like the depths of despair and ignorance in much of the voting public. He provides us with a circus, distracting from the very real damage done by people he has put in power, like Mulvaney or Pruitt. Speaking of adults, what about Sessions these days? He may end up playing John Dean in this very strange world line.
 
Meanwhile, how can we ensure a qualified candidate runs for President beginning next year? My most successful class project looked for one in 1980. It was successful in the sense students showed up for the 8 a.m. class an hour earlier. Hard to do in those days with the young fogies in our classes in Reagan's time.

No less than Thomas Piketty has suggested what we need is a younger, handsomer, Bernie Sanders. (You know how the French are.:rolleyes:)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: neroden
Meanwhile, how can we ensure a qualified candidate runs for President beginning next year? My most successful class project looked for one in 1980. It was successful in the sense students showed up for the 8 a.m. class an hour earlier. Hard to do in those days with the young fogies in our classes in Reagan's time.

No less than Thomas Piketty has suggested what we need is a younger, handsomer, Bernie Sanders. (You know how the French are.:rolleyes:)

Crap wrong video earlier.... meant to go with the "political one"

 
  • Funny
Reactions: Intl Professor
  • Like
  • Informative
Reactions: neroden and AZRI11
It's amazing to me how quickly the GOP dumped the principle of free trade and free markets at just the moment renewables start to undercut fossil fuels.

Just to be clear what conservatives used to give lip service to, here's classic Milton Friedman.

Just to be clear Trump is not a conservative. Until recently he gave more money to Democrats than Republicans.

Conservative politicians and intellectuals support free trade. More so than American Liberals.

Just about every long time Republican in the Trump administration is against increasing tariffs and launching a trade war. This is all Populist Trump's doing.
 
Just to be clear Trump is not a conservative. Until recently he gave more money to Democrats than Republicans.

Conservative politicians and intellectuals support free trade. More so than American Liberals.

Just about every long time Republican in the Trump administration is against increasing tariffs and launching a trade war. This is all Populist Trump's doing.
Yes. The question remains whether conservatives will regain control of this now Trumpian GOP or need to start a new party. At this point, I don't think that conservatives can reign in Trump, and the longer this goes on, the more durable the change in the character of the party.

A basic problem is that much of the financial support for the party comes from the fossil fuel industries, but increasingly free trade, free market ideology no longer serves the interest of these industries. Rather they are turning to seek government protection from market competition.

So why put a tariff on steel and aluminum? Is it really to save a few jobs? I suspect rather it is to protect the coal industry and utilities, coal for steel production and coal for electricity needed for aluminum production. The export market will not preserve the wealth of coal billionaire. China is converting to renewable energy too quickly. What they need is a domestic market for coal out of reach of free trade. Eventually the export opportunities will dry up for oil and natural gas too. As that happens, watch out. Free trade will become a dirty word. Oh wait, Bannon and Trump already made free trade a dirty word. That's what the globalists like the Clintons were about. In any case, who's going to bank roll the campaign of a true free trade, free market conservative these days?
 
The market is up 220 so.. who knows. Kinda weird for the market to rebound when there is a trade war coming and the president is sure to be lead off in handcuffs for creating a trade war to help his hotel business somehow. You would have to ask Rachael Maddow for the details on that.

Lol, so the Dow on any random day is how the impact of an economic policy over the next five or ten years should be evaluated?

Here is a link to help clarify for you what trade deficits have to do with the national debt. Did the Trade Deficit Cause $20 Trillion in Debt? . Feel free to share with the Great Leader, Sean Hannity and Fox and Friends. FYI, The Great Leader's perp walk will be
for colluding with our enemies and obstruction of justice, not lousy trade policy.
 
Lol, so the Dow on any random day is how the impact of an economic policy over the next five or ten years should be evaluated?

Here is a link to help clarify for you what trade deficits have to do with the national debt. Did the Trade Deficit Cause $20 Trillion in Debt? . Feel free to share with the Great Leader, Sean Hannity and Fox and Friends. FYI, The Great Leader's perp walk will be
for colluding with our enemies and obstruction of justice, not lousy trade policy.

Im saying that if people believed as you do, that the market would be down. No one believes there will be a trade war and thy understand that Trump is a deal maker who often lobs crap over the wall to see what happens. You have to ask Obama how the $20 Trillion Debt got there from about $10T before he took office. Maybe its Sean Hannity's fault.
 
Im saying that if people believed as you do, that the market would be down. No one believes there will be a trade war and thy understand that Trump is a deal maker who often lobs crap over the wall to see what happens. You have to ask Obama how the $20 Trillion Debt got there from about $10T before he took office. Maybe its Sean Hannity's fault.

Well obviously that's Bush's fault. o_O
 
Just to be clear Trump is not a conservative. Until recently he gave more money to Democrats than Republicans.

Because he wanted influence and favors for his cash. Many more Democrats in New York and NYC elective offices than Republicans.

Conservative politicians and intellectuals support free trade. More so than American Liberals.

True, but most centrist and/or pragmatic Democrats support free trade and understand globalization is a fact of life and can't be legislated away. The degeneration of the GOP has alienated many conservative journalist/commentators. Joe Scarborough, Andrew Sullivan, David Frum, and many others. They still believe in their foundation conservative principles. Most Republicans care more about staying funded by far right billionaires than staying true to conservative principles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: neroden and JRP3
Status
Not open for further replies.