Market politics

[wdolson]

NY in general is a corrupt state. Donald Trump is just following the status quo. Not really defending him. Don't really like him. But the reality is that NY is the most politically corrupt state in the nation and has been for a long time.

I grew up in Rochester BTW.

Louisianian is worse. New York has a lot of government people who get caught, but Louisiana is systematically corrupt. In a lot of ways Louisiana is a 3rd world country. Angola prison in Louisiana is quite possibly the worst in the US.

I live far from the coast, in a rural area, myself (the nearest farm is within walking distance). One of my closest friends lives in North Dakota.

The media has gotten so terrible that many people just don't know what's actually going on. This is worse in rural areas because they have worse media access. Most people, in urban or rural areas, are kept very busy by long work hours and don't have time to inform themselves, even if they do have access to half-decent media. The problem is ignorance -- such as your ignorance of Trump's actual history as a really terrible businessman and a con man -- stuff I knew from reading the NY newspapers for the last 40 years, but if you were reading the Iowa papers, you wouldn't have known about it.

Here on the west coast we had access to who Trump was. Nobody around here believed he could possibly win because he is such an obvious buffoon. He is only where he was because he's been very lucky not to get caught with all his criminal schemes, but regulators were mostly looking elsewhere.

He also has one single talent, he can sell anything to a specific type of person. If he hadn't been born into money, he would have been a very successful used car saleman in one of those places that offer financing for people who have bad credit. People with a better developed BS detector see him coming miles away. New York City people in specific saw through him and thought of him as the town joke because it's kind of in the NYC DNA to be cynical of anybody pitching something that looks too good to be true.

There should be a government program to promote fuel switching. The Republicans have opposed this. Democrats have supported it.

The new processing systems will be more efficient and save money in the long run, so the issue is capital costs. Therefore the most appropriate tool is zero-interest or low-interest-rate loans to replace inefficient old boilers with efficient electric or waste-biomass process heat. Grants would be OK too.

Replacing oil heat with natural gas has a lot of advantages.

In the 90s there was a big hoo haw about getting rid of the Rural Electrification Program which had become obsolete, but its mandate should have been expanded to bring infrastructure to rural areas. Internet access in a lot of rural areas is horrible.

 

[dmunjal]

Ocasio-Cortez goes after Tesla.

Ocasio-Cortez Goes After Tesla: ‘We Got No Return On Our Investment’

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Ocasio-Cortez goes after Tesla.

Ocasio-Cortez Goes After Tesla: ‘We Got No Return On Our Investment’

I saw that the other day. I am wondering what she specifically has a problem with. I know GF2 is slow to get going, so I can see an issue there. But generally everywhere else they've either paid back loans early, or otherwise generally made good on things. Surely she doesn't think EV incentives are somehow "handouts for the rich"... surely?

I am hoping her ire is focused, as a NY resident, on GF2 - since that would at least be relevant. That has taken ages and technically switching from the original Silevo plans to using Panasonic may have been a bit iffy as to the terms of the agreement with the state for setting up the factory, but it's not like somehow trying to turn back the clock on that is going to help things in any way.

 

[traxila]

Ocasio-Cortez goes after Tesla.

Ocasio-Cortez Goes After Tesla: ‘We Got No Return On Our Investment’

I will give the benefit of the doubt and say she is just ignorant here and not flat out stupid or already paid for by the fossil interests. While I like her story, I am not impressed with her statements so far.

I do acknowledge that she will be frequent easy target of fake news so it will be hard to get a handle on what is really going on with her unless I invest time I do not have into vetting this stuff.

 

[lolachampcar]

Do you really expect Ocasio-Cortez to understand risk, return and adding value?

The problem with Republicans is that they are competent. We provide the incentive to our elected officials. Those competent Republicans are responding to our incentives and are all turning to being crooks. The Dems are crooked as well, they just are not as business savvy and/or competent as their counterparts and are thus slightly less good at being crooked.

What did Bannon say? Something like the Dems are idiots. They keep bringing pillows to a gun fight.

 

[MikeQ]

Do you really expect Ocasio-Cortez to understand risk, return and adding value?

The problem with Republicans is that they are competent. We provide the incentive to our elected officials. Those competent Republicans are responding to our incentives and are all turning to being crooks. The Dems are crooked as well, they just are not as business savvy and/or competent as their counterparts and are thus slightly less good at being crooked.

What did Bannon say? Something like the Dems are idiots. They keep bringing pillows to a gun fight.

Isn't her beef really with the politicians that made poor agreements with Telsa? If they wanted a concrete guarantee on their investment, they should have had a clear path to recoup the $750 million that was invested. Tesla has requirements to employ a certain number of people and they are on a path to meet that obligation. They also have an obligation to spend $5 billion in the state over the next decade. Shouldn't she give them their 10 years before declaring ""We got nothing"? She seems like she just latches onto the "twitter outrage of the day" and comments on it without much understanding of the situation. She seems to be passionate about her "Green Deal" and I would think that Tesla would be an ally, not an enemy. She's also a socialist that believes every person should have a guaranteed job paying a miniumum of $15 an hour. I suspect her hatred for billionaires and the evil 1% is clouding her judgement in this situation.

 

[traxila]

Isn't her beef really with the politicians that made poor agreements with Telsa? If they wanted a concrete guarantee on their investment, they should have had a clear path to recoup the $750 million that was invested. Tesla has requirements to employ a certain number of people and they are on a path to meet that obligation. They also have an obligation to spend $5 billion in the state over the next decade. Shouldn't she give them their 10 years before declaring ""We got nothing"? She seems like she just latches onto the "twitter outrage of the day" and comments on it without much understanding of the situation. She seems to be passionate about her "Green Deal" and I would think that Tesla would be an ally, not an enemy. She's also a socialist that believes every person should have a guaranteed job paying a miniumum of $15 an hour. I suspect her hatred for billionaires and the evil 1% is clouding her judgement in this situation.

It does not seem that she comes from a generation that is into nuanced positions. She has beefs with the status quo and the democratic machine in NYS. That is all good.

Attacking corporate welfare with her bullseye on Tesla? This is deranged and at seeming odds with all of her new generation pseudo green politics. Does she even know what Tesla makes? Maybe not.

 

[dmunjal]

Do you really expect Ocasio-Cortez to understand risk, return and adding value?

She has an econ major.

 

[AudubonB]

It is unseemly: I agree.
Has anyone learned of any publicly-shown backlash to her Tesla statement?

 

[JRP3]

I was hoping, though not expecting, a clear refutation of her claims from Tesla.

 

[traxila]

I was hoping, though not expecting, a clear refutation of her claims from Tesla.

Tesla is much better off getting on with their business. If she is really that deranged you do not engage the enemy. If she just needs to get her message in order then you give her time and space for cordial future relations. Either way make solar panels and waste no time on her right now. Get your paid lobbyists involved for dialogue if anything.

 

[MikeQ]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter

She's using Tesla's move toward automated trucking as a call for protection of the working class too.

 

[bobinfla]

I have to say, I don't disagree with some of her sentiments.

If XYZ company is going to build a facility and have operations somewhere, why don't we just let them do it? City A ends up throwing all sorts of incentives at them so they don't get to City B. Then on the next project City B throws incentives at ABC Company to get them to open there. End result is that City A and City B both coughed up incentives (at taxpayer expense), while ABC and XYZ Companies both got great deals. Carry that out through many companies and many cities and you've built a system of corporate bribery using the tax payers money. Why don't we just let XYZ and ABC pick somewhere without the incentives, since they will pick somewhere anyway.

I don't know what her comments on the truckers were. But I understand that driving, whether it's a long-haul trucker, local delivery driver, cab driver, bus driver, limo driver, etc., etc., is the single largest occupation in the United States. When self-driving really hits, it is going to have a large impact on the economy. I know that in the past, new career paths have opened up to take on the workers displaced as things became obsolete, but at some point I think that theory will break down. Eventually I think we will have to go to a universal basic income system.

 

[MikeQ]

But it's not the companies fault that politicians are offering incentives. Go after the politicians, not the company getting the incentives. Who would turn down free money?

 

[neroden]

The statement that he could have just invested his dad’s fortunes in the S&P 500 particularly does not hold water.

Oh, I have four different citations for that one.

The 1 Easy Way Donald Trump Could Have Been Even Richer: Doing Nothing
(Paywalled)

What's More Lucrative: "The Apprentice" or the S&P 500?

Would Donald Trump Be Better Off Investing In Stocks?

Donald Trump isn't rich because he's a great investor. He's rich because his dad was rich.

FYI, some of the other people analyzed by these articles (Gates, Buffett, even *Michael Jackson*) made investments substantially better than the S&P.

----
It's also documented that Trump has been lying about his wealth, BTW; he originally got on the Forbes list by claiming his father's assets as his own. He didn't actually qualify.

 

[neroden]

I saw that the other day. I am wondering what she specifically has a problem with. I know GF2 is slow to get going, so I can see an issue there. But generally everywhere else they've either paid back loans early, or otherwise generally made good on things. Surely she doesn't think EV incentives are somehow "handouts for the rich"... surely?

I am hoping her ire is focused, as a NY resident, on GF2 - since that would at least be relevant.

Oh, it probably is, now that you mention it.

That has taken ages and technically switching from the original Silevo plans to using Panasonic may have been a bit iffy as to the terms of the agreement with the state for setting up the factory, but it's not like somehow trying to turn back the clock on that is going to help things in any way.

 

[neroden]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter

She's using Tesla's move toward automated trucking as a call for protection of the working class too.

She has the sense to realize that automated trucking is happening period, and is calling for Medicare-for-all. Musk would agree.

 

[neroden]

Tesla is much better off getting on with their business. If she is really that deranged you do not engage the enemy. If she just needs to get her message in order then you give her time and space for cordial future relations. Either way make solar panels and waste no time on her right now. Get your paid lobbyists involved for dialogue if anything.

And if she is indeed attacking the payouts to GF2, Tesla's priority should be to show results from GF2.

 

[MikeQ]

And if she is indeed attacking the payouts to GF2, Tesla's priority should be to show results from GF2.

No, Tesla's priority should be to put resources where they need to be. Right now, GF2 is definitely not the place. The only obligation they have is to put 5 billion into the NY economy in the next decade. That was the agreement that was made back when AOC was working in a diner. They shouldn't be doing anything solely to placate a misinformed politician. If the politician has a problem with the payouts, she needs to take it up with the people that put up the $750 million and set the terms of the agreement. She needs to give Tesla the 10 years to meet the agreement.

 

[wdolson]

Oh, I have four different citations for that one.

The 1 Easy Way Donald Trump Could Have Been Even Richer: Doing Nothing
(Paywalled)

What's More Lucrative: "The Apprentice" or the S&P 500?

Would Donald Trump Be Better Off Investing In Stocks?

Donald Trump isn't rich because he's a great investor. He's rich because his dad was rich.

FYI, some of the other people analyzed by these articles (Gates, Buffett, even *Michael Jackson*) made investments substantially better than the S&P.

----
It's also documented that Trump has been lying about his wealth, BTW; he originally got on the Forbes list by claiming his father's assets as his own. He didn't actually qualify.

Donald Trump ticks every box:
8 Signs Of Malignant Narcissism
Malignant narcissism - Wikipedia

Last week Lawrence O'Donnell summed up the three things that motivate Trump: Fame, Money, and Sex. They feed each other and he really does not care about anything else.